Cyprus-Forum.com

[Pyrpolizer]

Heres a hypothetical scenario for you Zan and Murataga.
Suppose the RoC government and your administration are put aside and the EU takes over Cyprus for administration and apply their own law here. There is no president, no parliament nothing, only EU officials doing some very basic administration, whereas the courts are based on EU aquis.
How do you see the situation developing?

In my opinion you will be in big trouble regarding the properties.

This is not an unrealistic scenario. In fact this is what would probably happen if one day Turkey enters the EU and the Cyprob is still unsolved.

[alexISS]

How can they have no say on the matter when the treaty of gaurantee by the 3 states was not only included in the annan plan but also reinforced???

Because they wouldn't try to go against the will of the people of EU country Cyprus, particularly TCs. It's not the seventies anymore, even for Turkey

[DT.]

How can they have no say on the matter when the treaty of gaurantee by the 3 states was not only included in the annan plan but also reinforced???

Because they wouldn't try to go against the will of the people of EU country Cyprus, particularly TCs. It's not the seventies anymore, even for Turkey

In my opinion Alexiss, that statement is a little naive.

They are already going against an EU country by not recognising it. This is when they're trying to join. Imagine once they enter when they wouldn't care anymore?

Secondly it can be done in a peaceful manner as well. After all the Turkish invasion was a Peace Operation according to our cousins here. Depending which way its spun anything can sound resonable.

WHy would a Treaty of Gaurantee be necessary if everything will be dealt with internally? Are we going for enosis with greece again while we're both in the EU? Whats it for, why did Turkey insist it being there if everything will be taken care of internally?

You gotta think about the motives behind this Alexiss.

[Piratis]

Bananiot, in your last reply you answered to non of my questions. You just said that we should believe what Denctash says, instead of Birad.
I will ask you a few of those questions again:

1) If RoC is Bananna Republic, what would be the result of the Annan plan with the several parliaments, presidents, states, settlers etc?

2) Say theoretically that the island is partitioned officially, but the north enters the EU and some GCs are allowed to return there as a minority. How different is such "solution" from the Annan plan "solution"? Can you show me than in practice the Annan plan was not a partition plan?

3) You said that after signing the Annan plan we would work together to improve it. And I asked you: Do you expect them to give up something after we have singed it away? Don't you remember what happened the last time we proposed changes?

[alexISS]

In my opinion Alexiss, that statement is a little naive.

I on the other hand believe it's naive to think that one country can veto an amendment of the constitution of another

They are already going against an EU country by not recognising it. This is when they're trying to join. Imagine once they enter when they wouldn't care anymore?

That's not at all the same. If they enter the EU without recognising one of its member, I will admit that Turkey can have her own way with the world no matter what. But that's not going to happen. I know Cyprus has suffered a lot because of Turkey, but if this pathological fear of her continues it will cause more damage than the invasion itself.

WHy would a Treaty of Gaurantee be necessary if everything will be dealt with internally? Are we going for enosis with greece again while we're both in the EU? Whats it for, why did Turkey insist it being there if everything will be taken care of internally?

You gotta think about the motives behind this Alexiss.

The motives are obvious: internal consumption. We have to realise that the dissolution of the "TRNC" will have a huge impact on the public opinion in Turkey. There is no power given to Turkey by this "treaty of Guarantee", unless of course a civil war breaks out in Cyprus

[Piratis]

The Greek government supported the Annan plan, so did the DISY party if I'm not wrong. I also remember a poll conducted in Greece showed that the Greek public opinion was very slightly against the plan. Even AKEL that made Papadopoulos President was not negative to the plan, again, correct me if I'm wrong. What would have happened if Papadopoulos was not in power then? From what I've seen, Greek Cypriots are strongly attached to the parties they vote for (even football teams are "linked" to political parties). If Anastasiades or Clerides was president, would he be able to convince the public to accept the plan? I really think he would.

alexiSS, I remember at least one poll in Greece that showed that Greeks were against the Annan plan in their great majority. Also in Cyprus, even before Papadopoulos took the power, all polls showed that GCs were rejecting the Annan plan. The only polls that showed less rejection were some polls from Politis (not a surprise!).
Also remember that even in DISY the majority of people (60-65% I believe) rejected the plan even with the full support of their party and Cleredes.
What would make a difference is if all major parties asked from their people to vote for the Annan partition plan. Who was the president didn't make any difference. We know already that even DISY supporters didn't follow the directions of Cleredes. Do you think the supporters of AKEL, DIKO and EDEK will listen to Cleredes and not to their own leaders?

[Piratis]

I agree with Zan however would like to reiterate my belief that Turkey will always keep supporting our quest for self-administration rights in Cyprus.

Turkish Cypriots are: pro “agreed” partitionists (please notice its distinction from being a sole “pro partitionist”). More elaborately, we want a “Partnership State of Cyprus” where the equal status and legitimacy of its co-founding parties is explicitly recognized and respected and that under it, neither side is allowed, directly or implicitly, to extend its will, legitimacy or sovereignty over the other. The principles of bi-communality, political equality and bi-zonality are the key parameters for a settlement in Cyprus that have also been endorsed by the U.N. Security Council.

We want to live in Cyprus with Greeks as our friends and neighbors but not as our administrators.

Murtaga, what you say is no different that what Viewpoint, Zan etc are saying. The only difference is that you are at least not a hypocrite, and you are not calling what you are asking a "unification", but you call it what it really is: partition.

Before the 1960, the two extremes - Enosis with Greece and Partition, were compromised end we ended up with the 1960 agreements. Now give me one reason why after making that compromise we should come and accept your most extreme demands? What will you give us in return? Part of Turkey?

[alexISS]

alexiSS, I remember at least one poll in Greece that showed that Greeks were against the Annan plan in their great majority. Also in Cyprus, even before Papadopoulos took the power, all polls showed that GCs were rejecting the Annan plan. The only polls that showed less rejection were some polls from Politis (not a surprise!).
Also remember that even in DISY the majority of people (60-65% I believe) rejected the plan even with the full support of their party and Cleredes.
What would make a difference is if all major parties asked from their people to vote for the Annan partition plan. Who was the president didn't make any difference. We know already that even DISY supporters didn't follow the directions of Cleredes. Do you think the supporters of AKEL, DIKO and EDEK will listen to Cleredes and not to their own leaders?

There were two polls I remember, the first was conducted amongst the Greek Cypriots living in Greece which showed a clear rejection, and another amongst Greek citizens

http://www.hri.org/news/greek/eragr/200 ... gr.html#01

το 40% απαντά να ψηφίσουν "Ναι", το 44% να ψηφίσουν "Όχι" ενώ δεν απαντά - δεν γνωρίζει το 14%

I remember all the TV stations in Cyprus were alligned against the Annan plan, magnifying all its shortcomings and hiding the positives. The public opinion was constantly bombarded with warnings of an upcoming destruction.

I'm sorry, I believe Papadopoulos does not want a solution to the problem, or at least he does not want the responsibility of being the President who signs it. The least he could do after the rejection of the Annan plan would be to take the iniciative for a new solution plan, showing the world that the people voted no because they sincerely believed it was not a good plan, not because they did not want a solution

[Viewpoint]

I agree with Zan however would like to reiterate my belief that Turkey will always keep supporting our quest for self-administration rights in Cyprus.

Turkish Cypriots are: pro “agreed” partitionists (please notice its distinction from being a sole “pro partitionist”). More elaborately, we want a “Partnership State of Cyprus” where the equal status and legitimacy of its co-founding parties is explicitly recognized and respected and that under it, neither side is allowed, directly or implicitly, to extend its will, legitimacy or sovereignty over the other. The principles of bi-communality, political equality and bi-zonality are the key parameters for a settlement in Cyprus that have also been endorsed by the U.N. Security Council.

We want to live in Cyprus with Greeks as our friends and neighbors but not as our administrators.

Murtaga, what you say is no different that what Viewpoint, Zan etc are saying. The only difference is that you are at least not a hypocrite, and you are not calling what you are asking a "unification", but you call it what it really is: partition.

Before the 1960, the two extremes - Enosis with Greece and Partition, were compromised end we ended up with the 1960 agreements. Now give me one reason why after making that compromise we should come and accept your most extreme demands? What will you give us in return? Part of Turkey?

You are the hypocrite Piratis as you do not accept what you yourself promote for us a minority within a GC state. When the tables are turned and GCs are faced with being the minority in the North State you reject it out right. Why do you find it so difficult to share allowing me to have the same as yourself no more no less. Lets strip back to basics I have no army you have no army, you have recognition I have recognition or we both have no recognition, I have guarantees you have guarantees, you get rid of all your foreign settlers and so do I and so on...lets equal things out, what do you think about that???

[DT.]

In my opinion Alexiss, that statement is a little naive.

I on the other hand believe it's naive to think that one country can veto an amendment of the constitution of another

They are already going against an EU country by not recognising it. This is when they're trying to join. Imagine once they enter when they wouldn't care anymore?

That's not at all the same. If they enter the EU without recognising one of its member, I will admit that Turkey can have her own way with the world no matter what. But that's not going to happen. I know Cyprus has suffered a lot because of Turkey, but if this pathological fear of her continues it will cause more damage than the invasion itself.

WHy would a Treaty of Gaurantee be necessary if everything will be dealt with internally? Are we going for enosis with greece again while we're both in the EU? Whats it for, why did Turkey insist it being there if everything will be taken care of internally?

You gotta think about the motives behind this Alexiss.

The motives are obvious: internal consumption. We have to realise that the dissolution of the "TRNC" will have a huge impact on the public opinion in Turkey. There is no power given to Turkey by this "treaty of Guarantee", unless of course a civil war breaks out in Cyprus

Alexiss, read the annan plan again especially the appendix regarding the gaurantee. WHat would stop turkey from calling in that gaurantee AS IT HAS ALREADY DONE SO IN THE PAST in order to have what it always wanted, a Turkish state on Cyprus?