Cyprus-Forum.com

[skipper]

I never said Turkey was a stable country, my point was in terms of stability it has never been so stable and more so considering the situation in Iraq. I would n't say Turkey owes its existance to the US, but like most of Europe did owe its security during the cold war but I could n't say Turkey would collapse with the absense of the US unless you could give me a concret example how.

I also dont think that a Kurdish state in northern Iraq would much change things for the simple fact that there is an example in Azerbaijan and Iran which has atleast as many Azeris as a percentage of its population as Turkey has Kurds infact Iran has more ethnic groups than Turkey has. Azerbaijan also has oil and gas too and no one is speculating the break up Iran for the simple fact that there is no oil in northern Iran in the same way there is no oil in south eastern Turkey. A Kurdish state in northern Iraq would have enemies in all directions.

The fact of the matter is that everyone knows the chances of Turkey joining the EU are prettymuch slim to non-existant and that what economist and investors have realised is that its the IMF led reforms that is driving the economy and have factored this in. True the Turkish lira was lifted when it started EU negotiations, but the currency was corrected a few months back which was a good thing as it was causing imports to increase and finally the GDP to debt ratio is not bad at 65% which is better than some EU countries such as Italy and Greece. Like I said Turkey is not in bad shape.

I never said you was n't in your right to fight, what I am asking is if it is the best strategy, if this "long game" will ultimately get the Turkish army to leave, send people back to Turkey and finally allow people back to their homes. I personally cant see how this would be accomplished, sure you will annoy Turkey for a while but eventually they wont even notice.

Like I said, you can fight for the sake of fighting, but you either have the choice of a fight that will never end in victory or have most of the Turkish army leave, send most of the people back to Turkey and allow most people back to their homes.

Thats my point of view, give me a senario that would make me think otherwise.

[Piratis]

Piratis wrote:

I'm sure Mr. Makarios Diousiotis, who wrote this article, will be accused of being a "Turkish Agent" by some members on this forum.!!



For some reason Drousiotis and the Turks (same thing?) .

Meanwhile what we have to do is to keep the Turks as impoverished as possible, and make them face as much consequences as possible. This is our aim for now not to "solve" the Cyprus problem in the period were the balance of power favors Turkey

For someone reading this board, pirates would u care to put into percentage terms how many people in the south share this point of view:

Just so we can get an idea of the situation on the ground, I want to know how many Ar**hole, P***ks there are out there, down south

Paaul12, go drink your milk.

[Piratis]

skipper, An independent Kurdistan with the US support over northern Iraq and southern Turkey is more possible than you think. Don't forget that the Americans were the closest allies of Afghanistan and Iraq at some time, and look what happened to them now.

You should never judge the future based on the current facts. Could you forseee an Independent Latvia (with 30% Russain population) in the 70s. USSR had nuclear wepons and everythig, but this didn't stop it from colapsing. The examples are many and I will give you even more if you want.

What is important for us is to assist with whatever little power we have in the correct direction and to be ready to take back our land when we will be given the chance.

Like I said, you can fight for the sake of fighting, but you either have the choice of a fight that will never end in victory or have most of the Turkish army leave, send most of the people back to Turkey and allow most people back to their homes.

We never had such an option. The only thing that the Turks accept is a disguised partition. Nothing less than that. What we want is liberation of our country. Not some of our refugees to return to their homes under Turkish occupation and in return to legalize partition.

[observer]

Piratis wrote:

Peace will come when the Turkish aggression against the independent and sovereign Republic of Cyprus ends.
Anything other than this is not peace, but our capitulation, and this will never happen.

It seems to have escaped his notice that compared with what went on for the 11 years before 1974 there has been peace in the 32 years since then. All Cypriots should be grateful to the Turkish Army for keeping the peace, a job that the UN 'peacekeepers' failed to do for so long.

[skipper]

skipper, An independent Kurdistan with the US support over northern Iraq and southern Turkey is more possible than you think. Don't forget that the Americans were the closest allies of Afghanistan and Iraq at some time, and look what happened to them now.

There is no way a Kurdistan could suddenly appear covering SE Turkey and Northern Iraq, the only Kurdish state that could appear would be via the break up of Iraq and that would not be clean by any means and have hostile neighbours in all directions including iraqi's to the south.

The US would not fight a ground war just for the Kurds even if Turkey was no longer their friends. I mean look at Iran, can you envisidge the US dropping into Azerbaijan to invade Iran to free the Iranian Azerbaijanis? Of course not, because there is no oil there in the same way there is no oil in SE Turkey.

In the cases of Iraq and Afganistan the US's stated aim has never been to break up the country it has always been about changing of regimes. Turkey would have to do something pretty big to become an Iraq or Afganistan and of late the relationship between the US and Turkey has become a little more balanced.

You should never judge the future based on the current facts. Could you forseee an Independent Latvia (with 30% Russain population) in the 70s. USSR had nuclear wepons and everythig, but this didn't stop it from colapsing. The examples are many and I will give you even more if you want.

You cant predict the future but you can make the distinction to what is probable and what is possible. The USSR broke up because it went bankrupt so having nuclear weapons meant nothing in that case, people with the intelligence knew the USSR was going to break up over ten years before it did. Infact the administrative boundries of the USSR where made up from the beggining in a way so that in the event of the USSR breaking up Russia would not lose any territory only territory it had gained. Thats why Latvia which was a SSR gained its independance where as much larger Tartaristan ASSR did not.

Besides the USSR was an empire and not a country, countries that lose their empires seem to be very good a self preservation once they have lost them.

What is important for us is to assist with whatever little power we have in the correct direction and to be ready to take back our land when we will be given the chance.

Since the future is not clear, you cant say "when", its more like an "if"

Like I said, you can fight for the sake of fighting, but you either have the choice of a fight that will never end in victory or have most of the Turkish army leave, send most of the people back to Turkey and allow most people back to their homes.

We never had such an option. The only thing that the Turks accept is a disguised partition. Nothing less than that. What we want is liberation of our country. Not some of our refugees to return to their homes under Turkish occupation and in return to legalize partition.

I still cant see how you are going to get Turkey to give what you want, since its all based on speculation/hope and not strategy. You might get lucky but on the other hand you might get very unlucky, thats the risk you take when you gamble. Of course if the majority of GC's are willing to take that gamble then thats fine, I just hope that they are well informed that it is a gamble.

[pitsilos]

in 30-50 years turks will be begging for an annan plan. the turks will simply get outnumbered by that time, by the the kurds.

the population growth of turkey will come from the kurds.

[bg_turk]

There is no way a Kurdistan could suddenly appear covering SE Turkey and Northern Iraq, the only Kurdish state that could appear would be via the break up of Iraq and that would not be clean by any means and have hostile neighbours in all directions including iraqi's to the south.

I would not count on this either. The USA seems to have no intention of dividing Iraq. Kurds in Northern Iraq are furious:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6163721.stm

[Bananiot]

In essense, Pitsillos and Piratis are telling us that we should base our long term policy (we have no short term policy, by the way) on the "certainty" that in 30 or so years Turkey will be minced up. What a fallacy and what a dangerous game they are calling us to play! I think, they are paid agents of the ... enemy. They must be on the deep state's pay roll.

[Piratis]

And what is the alternative Bananiot? The Annan plan?

Annan plan is worst than the status quo. It is a plan made to solve the problems of Turkey and TCs on our expense.

Lets even theoretically accept the hopes of the Turks that the balance of power will never turn against them, and that liberating northern Cyprus is as good as the resurrection of a dead man. And I am asking you: If somebody kills a person that you love, wouldn't you want that person to be punished and have consequences due to his action? Surely punishing the criminal would not resurrect the dead, but at least in this way some justice is served.

Therefore I repeat: What we should do is to harm our enemies as much as possible for the crime they committed against us and be ready for when the balance of power will allow for the liberation of our country. This is the only option we have, as everything else currently available is nothing more than suicide for us.

If the Turks ever change (I doubt) and they are willing for a decent compromise (not our capitulation) then we can talk again.

[zan]

And what is the alternative Bananiot? The Annan plan?

Annan plan is worst than the status quo. It is a plan made to solve the problems of Turkey and TCs on our expense.

Lets even theoretically accept the hopes of the Turks that the balance of power will never turn against them, and that liberating northern Cyprus is as good as the resurrection of a dead man. And I am asking you: If somebody kills a person that you love, wouldn't you want that person to be punished and have consequences due to his action? Surely punishing the criminal would not resurrect the dead, but at least in this way some justice is served.

Therefore I repeat: What we should do is to harm our enemies as much as possible for the crime they committed against us and be ready for when the balance of power will allow for the liberation of our country. This is the only option we have, as everything else currently available is nothing more than suicide for us.

If the Turks ever change (I doubt) and they are willing for a decent compromise (not our capitulation) then we can talk again.

The firing continued. About 0730 hrs the Greek police sergeant told me that they were attacking the Turkish school in 15 minutes and I had better remove myself. I told him that I was staying and that any firing upon the school would be fired upon by my soldiers. I also repeated that I would allow no Turks there either. The sergeant phoned the divisional gendemarie commander and he spoke to me. He repeated the demand to leave the school and warned me that his men were using anti-tank weapons. I repeated that I was staying and that my men would defend themselves. I gave orders that of attacked we would return effective fire. Shortly after there was a loud explosion from the school, followed by bursts of machine gun fire at the Greek position to the east. Sergt. Ramsden reported that a bazooka shot had hit the roof and that he had fired upon the bazooka team. All shooting stopped. Soon after the police sergeant told me that his superiors had agreed not to attack the school!

I agree with you Piratis, but we do not have to wait for a change in power........