Cyprus-Forum.com

[Alexandros Lordos]

Kelebek,

I think you are rushing into this forum with too much aggression ... we are here to talk and sort out our differences in a spirit of friendship and respect, let's not forget that ...

As for the settlers, here is a list of the problems that Greek Cypriots have ( I am listing them so we can talk about them, not because I want to hit you over the head with them ):

a. The fact that they were brought in deliberately by Turkey to alter the demographic balance of Cyprus and to "fill in the empty houses" left over from 1974. The 1974 events were traumatic in themselves, and the fact that settlers were then brought in was just rubbing salt into the wound. By the way, it is not true that Greek Cypriots have brought in 35,000 pontian Greeks. I don't know where you got that. Greek Cypriots have brought in a lot of temporary workers on work permits, and from time to time various refugees requesting asylum from different parts of the world, but very few citizenships have been granted.

b. The fact that they are living in Greek Cypriot homes. This is not an easy problem to resolve, even if you build new houses for them, because the new houses will most probably also be on Greek Cypriot land. It is not the same with Turkish Cypriots, because they had property back in Paphos, Limassol or Larnaca, and it is understandable (though painful) that some exchange of property as far as they are concerned will have to take place in the framework of a solution, since we have already accepted the principle of bizonality.

c. The fear that the settlers will amount to a separate political force, through which Turkey will influence Cypriot politics. Many of the settlers are ex-army officers who were then granted citizenship, and not poor anatolian villagers ... many of these have an outlook on life that is strictly kemalist, with a view to maintaining ethnic purity and separation of Turks from Greeks in Cyprus. Would they be helpful after a solution?

d. The fear that, after a solution, the settlers (or at least a proportion of them) will not be sufficiently socially integrated. Now in the north there are only Turkish Cypriots and settlers, and tension is often reported ... what do you think will happen when you add Greek Cypriots in the equation, who are bound to return in significant numbers after an agreed solution?

Personally, I have visited the north quite a few times, and met quite a lot of settlers. Some of them I found perfectly agreeable, simple, hard-working people who have integrated succesfully into society. There were others, however, who I found scary: People who had nothing to do with Cypriot culture, with radical islamist tendencies, hard and withdrawn from what was going on around them ...

This is what happens when you just put people in ships and tell them, go to Cyprus, you will all get free houses there. Ghettos tend to develop. And ghettos are a source of all sorts of problems.

I think that, to sit here and argue whether all settlers should leave or all settlers should stay is a waste of time. The real question, the practically meaningful question, is who should leave and who should stay. And furthermore, what measures can be taken to ensure the social integration of those who will finally stay ...

Have a good day

[tcypriot]

Are the Greek Cypriots also willing to negotiate the deportian of the Pontian Greeks or can they stay in Cyprus no matter what because they are Greek?!

What about the kurdish terrorists in South Cyprus, they're a threat for the Turkish Cypriot Nation in its own homeland.Are you ready to deport the foreigners that live in South Cyprus without our consent or will you say that they are legally residing in Cyprus because the greekcypriots let them in.

[Piratis]

Are the Greek Cypriots also willing to negotiate the deportian of the Pontian Greeks or can they stay in Cyprus no matter what because they are Greek?!

Personally I have nothing against Pontians, but many GCs don't like them and in any case I don't think many would bother to see them leaving. Actually most GCs would be very happy with such development.
This is something that the Turkish site needs to bring on the table of negotiations. I guess they don't do it because they don't want to "trade" the settlers for the pontians.

And where did you see the "Kurdish Terrorists"? Very few Kurds were given a citizenship, we are not talking about a percentage in the population here or anything close to that. In any case, if you bring this to the negotiations is something that could be easily solved.

[brother]

The leader of the kurds Mr Ocalan had a GC passport WHEN HE WAS CAUGHT and confirmed he stayed in south of cyprus and you chaps were very helpful, hence the passport etc. GET YOUR FACTS RIGHT ONLY THE STUPID PRETEND THEY ARE WHITER THAN WHITE.

[erolz]

a. The fact that they were brought in deliberately by Turkey to alter the demographic balance of Cyprus and to "fill in the empty houses" left over from 1974. The 1974 events were traumatic in themselves, and the fact that settlers were then brought in was just rubbing salt into the wound. By the way, it is not true that Greek Cypriots have brought in 35,000 pontian Greeks. I don't know where you got that. Greek Cypriots have brought in a lot of temporary workers on work permits, and from time to time various refugees requesting asylum from different parts of the world, but very few citizenships have been granted.

I do not think the only reasons settlers were brought in from Turkey were 'political' - some were also practical. Just as the south had need for workers so too did the north. I am not denying there was a political aspect as well just making the point that it was not the only motivation.
Is the way the RoC treats its 'foreign workers' not an indication of it's ethnocentricity? Is it actually not more just to say, ok we as a country need foreign workers - let's accept them as equal partners and citizens and not treat them as second class citizens (ignoring the issue of who got houses for the moment)?

b. The fact that they are living in Greek Cypriot homes. This is not an easy problem to resolve, even if you build new houses for them, because the new houses will most probably also be on Greek Cypriot land. It is not the same with Turkish Cypriots, because they had property back in Paphos, Limassol or Larnaca, and it is understandable (though painful) that some exchange of property as far as they are concerned will have to take place in the framework of a solution, since we have already accepted the principle of bizonality.

The idea would be to build state owned housing for them on state owned land. Is there really not enough state owned land, TC or GC to accomodate this? If not then part of the cost would be for the state to buy private owned land for this purpose.

c. The fear that the settlers will amount to a separate political force, through which Turkey will influence Cypriot politics. Many of the settlers are ex-army officers who were then granted citizenship, and not poor anatolian villagers ... many of these have an outlook on life that is strictly kemalist, with a view to maintaining ethnic purity and separation of Turks from Greeks in Cyprus. Would they be helpful after a solution?

I do not think it is fair to say that 'many' of them were ex (Turkish) army officers. My personal opinion is that this is a very very small number of the total setler population in the north, prob less than 1% but would be willing to look at evidence that suggests otherwise.
As for becoming a 'political force' in Cyprus - this has not happened in the North in my opinion and would not happen in are united Cyprus. The expat English (who are tiny in numerical numbers and have no vote) are probably more of a 'political force' as a group in Cyprus than the settlers. They probably have more influence on political leaders and decsions as a group than the settlers.

d. The fear that, after a solution, the settlers (or at least a proportion of them) will not be sufficiently socially integrated. Now in the north there are only Turkish Cypriots and settlers, and tension is often reported ... what do you think will happen when you add Greek Cypriots in the equation, who are bound to return in significant numbers after an agreed solution?
Personally, I have visited the north quite a few times, and met quite a lot of settlers. Some of them I found perfectly agreeable, simple, hard-working people who have integrated succesfully into society. There were others, however, who I found scary: People who had nothing to do with Cypriot culture, with radical islamist tendencies, hard and withdrawn from what was going on around them ...

It is true that there are some tensions between TC and the settlers here. For me you do not solve the problem by removing it (rtemoving settlers). We need to address our own prejudices and find out what the source of these tensions are. In my experience they tend to come primarily from a need to 'blame' someone (other than yourself or your 'group') and 'immigrants' are always and easy group to project a societies fears and angers onto, the world over. So for me the solution to reducing tension is to do with us, not them - at least in the first instance. Are there not 'scary' people in any group? Are their no 'scary' GC or TC?

I think that, to sit here and argue whether all settlers should leave or all settlers should stay is a waste of time. The real question, the practically meaningful question, is who should leave and who should stay. And furthermore, what measures can be taken to ensure the social integration of those who will finally stay ...

Have a good day

I do not think it a waste of time to present arguments that say we should not make our renunification dependent on sending away by force people that already live in Cyprus and consider it their home. To me how we deal with 'non born Cypriots' (settelers and any others on both sides) is the 'litmus test' of how much we have matured as societies since the 60's. If we can not solve our differences without inflicting suffering on a group that is weak - politicaly and economicaly, then we have not matured very much in my opinion.

[Othellos]

I do not think the only reasons settlers were brought in from Turkey were 'political' - some were also practical. Just as the south had need for workers so too did the north.

What kind of industry was there ever in the occupied areas that justified the import of 100,000+ "workers"? If their number was 10,000 or 15,000 then one could perhaps buy the "workers" story. But not when they exceed the number of foreign workers in the free areas where population and development are much higher, not when they exceed the number of TC's, and not when they have settled in entire villages that were once inhabited by their GC indigenous population.

To me how we deal with 'non born Cypriots' (settelers and any others on both sides) is the 'litmus test' of how much we have matured as societies since the 60's.

If only the same sensitivity was shown in how real Cypriots are dealt with or treated....

O.

[-mikkie2-]

In southern Cyprus, the 'settlers' that so many TC's seem to refer to are NOT citizens of the RoC. They are guest and nothing more. Pontian Greeks for example have Greek and therefore EU passports. They are free to come and go in Cyprus because they are EU citizens. They are NOT however citizens of the RoC. This is the fundamental difference between the Turkish settlers in the north and the ones you think there are in the south. Turkish settlers are given a direct say in what happens in northern Cyprus. The question is, are TC's happy to have such a large number of people that have no link to Cyprus other than coming here on the promise of getting rich off other peoples backs, have a say in how our country is run.

I don't think this is a question of maturity or not. It is a question of what is right and what is wrong. I agree that it is difficult for those settlers that have come here in the 70's. Many of these people have integrated into Cypriot culture and should be treated differently to the large mass of people that were brought in in more recent years.

My view is that around 30-40000 should stay and the rest should be given the incentive to leave. Many of the settlers would probably leave if given reasonable compensation. We have to remember the TC's and GC's that do not currently live in Cyprus. Is it really that certain that many of those would not return after a solution?

What is imperative is that the rights of the indigenous Cypriots should not be compromised in order to accomodate the settlers. To me this is a line that should not be crossed. This is for the sake of all parties concerned and not purely for the interests of the GC's.

[erolz]

My view is that around 30-40000 should stay and the rest should be given the incentive to leave. Many of the settlers would probably leave if given reasonable compensation.

If people chose to leave Cyprus that is one thing. Forcing them to do so is another.

Many of the settlers would probably leave if given reasonable compensation. We have to remember the TC's and GC's that do not currently live in Cyprus. Is it really that certain that many of those would not return after a solution?

I do not accept that settlers staying impacts if expat GC and TC return or not?

What is imperative is that the rights of the indigenous Cypriots should not be compromised in order to accomodate the settlers. To me this is a line that should not be crossed. This is for the sake of all parties concerned and not purely for the interests of the GC's.

I agree that the rights of indigenous Cypriots should not be compromised to accomodate the settlers. I just do not see how allowing them to stay, if the want to, and if the property issue is dealt with, affects the rights of indigenous Cypriots?

[MicAtCyp]

I suppose the 35,000 Pontian Greeks who were given Cyprus citizenship without the consent of the Turkish-Cypriots applied for visas.

The pontians do not have citizenship, do not have voting rights (they go to Greece for voting), do not have Cypriot Identity cards, do not have Cypriot passports (they have Greek Passports) they are here just to work, and finally they do not live in stolen properties.

In other words you got in because of Greek threats and black mail, does that make you feel good about Cyprus EU accession?

What nonsense is this? If we were not invaded by the Turks we would be in the EU long before Greece because our Economy was the best in the Mediteranean and higher than the average EU country.

By the way who is that TC idiot who voted in this poll when I specifically wrote DO NOT VOTE HERE UNLESS YOU ARE A GREEK CYPRIOT?

[KELEBEK]

c. The fear that the settlers will amount to a separate political force, through which Turkey will influence Cypriot politics. Many of the settlers are ex-army officers who were then granted citizenship, and not poor anatolian villagers ... many of these have an outlook on life that is strictly kemalist, with a view to maintaining ethnic purity and separation of Turks from Greeks in Cyprus. Would they be helpful after a solution?

Yes they may very well be Kemalist or Socialist or Islamist, Turkey has them all, but they have rights. Before you tell me "why didn`t they think of that before they moved to Cyprus?" -I dont know the answer, all we now is that it was a decision most probably made by officials in Ankara, but we T/Cs who are a little more mature in these matters than your side, have to live with these people everyday, we cant be as cynical and cold-blooded as you. We have to live with this decision by Ankara, we have no choice, we may not like it, but we are at the end of the day a compassionate people, you better believe it.

You cant just evict them from the island because they were moved there by Turkey 30 years ago, it is not the peoples fault they were treated as objects in a political game.

I disagree, some maybe ex-army officers, but the vast majority are peasants from South Eastern and Northern (Black Sea region) of Turkey. Half of them are not even Turks themselves, they are Kurds or Laz. I am afraid to tell you that no T/C, even the most liberal minded will support the idea of repatriating all settlers and your politicians know that.

So...why demand something that you know we are never going to accept? Can I ask you another question? Do you think by evicting the settlers, and causing them psychological distress that you are going to get back at Turkey? Is this really what it is about? Does two wrongs make a right?

d. The fear that, after a solution, the settlers (or at least a proportion of them) will not be sufficiently socially integrated. Now in the north there are only Turkish Cypriots and settlers, and tension is often reported ... what do you think will happen when you add Greek Cypriots in the equation, who are bound to return in significant numbers after an agreed solution?

I think all this talk of tension between Turks and T/Cs is over-exaggerated nonesense. Some T/C have issues with Ankara but not with ordinary people. North Cyprus is a peaceful place, the only issues are economic caused by inhumane G/C sanctions.

The truth is we get along better with settlers than with G/Cs. We have no threat of getting murdered or attacked and we can sleep without fear at night that a crazy EOKA man will burst through the door to pop a few bullets in our heads. We have peace without propsperity now, whereas under the G/Cs we had no prosperity and no peace.

Look how much we argue on this forum (and we are meant to be enlightened people), look at Piratis and his anachronistic attitude to the T/Cs, this is evidence enough that partition works. If anything Piratis has convinced me that the best solution is a permenant division.

I think that, to sit here and argue whether all settlers should leave or all settlers should stay is a waste of time. The real question, the practically meaningful question, is who should leave and who should stay. And furthermore, what measures can be taken to ensure the social integration of those who will finally stay ...

Quite frankly I find the whole idea of deciding who stays and who goes quite worrying, sooner of later you are going to have some G/C guy saying "oh...according to these dental records T/C are originally from Yozgat, Beysehir, Antalya Turkey and have Yoruk origins, and according to these Ottomanm archives they arrived and settled illegally in Cyprus in 1572-they are settlers too, lets send them back".

Personally, I have visited the north quite a few times, and met quite a lot of settlers. Some of them I found perfectly agreeable, simple, hard-working people who have integrated succesfully into society. There were others, however, who I found scary: People who had nothing to do with Cypriot culture, with radical islamist tendencies, hard and withdrawn from what was going on around them ...

Believe it or not but there are T/Cs who are radical islamists. I know two or three of them when I was at Lise (Lycee) in Famagusta. I expect every country has them even Iceland! But they are a part of Cyprus now, we have to accept them and integrate them.

This is what happens when you just put people in ships and tell them, go to Cyprus, you will all get free houses there. Ghettos tend to develop. And ghettos are a source of all sorts of problems.

I disagree, I think ghettos form when you dont integrate people. Most of the European settlers with very very different cultures who arrived in Ellis island, by ship did not (thankfully) isolate themselves in ghettos, they contributed to that country`s society.[/quote]