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[insan]

No what you say is completely un- propable!!!

It seems to me that you are very pretentious about it...


Insan wrote:

Moreover, as a consequence of TCs attitude not to sell their properties to GCs, Greeks and Eoropeans, it is highly probable for TCs to face with a retaliation from them. Those wealthy GCs, Greeks and Europeans might own the big companies in TC constituent state but just for the retaliation in order to opress TCs, they may intentionally might not employ much TCs, e.g limited with %5. Ain't these probable? Who could stop them doing this? GC dominated central state or supreme court?

MicAtCyp wrote:

I don't know how many times I have to say it but this is NOT the 60s. Today nobody forms gangs for stupid nationalistic reasons (with the exception of Grey wolves of course).

Although there was nothing related with the gangs, in the quotation you've taken from me; I just want to remind you the exception of Chrissy Augi...

If some people form gangs they do it for their own pocket (mafia gangs). Today the GCs care only for their private goodselves.

I have no detailed information to make generalizations upon GC community.

If the GCs accept a solution through majority voting they have absolutely no reason to retaliate on the TCs.
The Gcs will retaliate on the TCs ONLY in case they are forced to accept an unfair solution.

However, TC community has already does not consider a solution based upon "majoritarian federalism" would be fair and viable for themselves. If what you said above is true, the majority of GCs do not consider TC community as their politicaly equal partner...

An acceptance of the TCs to limit their own right BY LAW to sell to GCs instead of limiting the GCs right will be very well understood and appreciated by the GCs.

But nevertheless, 40.000 GC residents of TC constituent state will be able to sell their properties to GCs, Greeks and Eoropeans in order to prepare the ground becoming the majority of TC constituent state, step by step...

Furthermore currently the majority of GCs feel they want to help the TCs in case of a solution.

I have no idea about what the majority of GCs feel whether to help or not to help TCs in case of a solution but there's one thing I'm sure majority of the ordinary people usually go through where their ruling and leading elite point them to go. This has been proved by experience.

Even capitalists want the standard of living to equalise the soonest possible so as not to have problems due to economic unequalities.

There's no pilot needed to see what the Cyprus capitalists in dream of... I will not repeat once again because I've stressed it so many times...

Even today beleive it or not the GC employers do help the TCs. It would be very easy to substitute them with cheap labour from Asian Countries. However they don't do it.

I know that, some GC employers do help TCs. TC employees told me that some of them offer this help sincerely, while others calculate the political profit of their "help".


When I asked them to tell me which group is dominant of that two, they told me that the second group which offer help to the TC employess is dominant. And then they asked me a question: "Do you think that we are happy to do those 3rd class jobs which majority of GCs don't like or don't want to do?" and they added: "We have to do those jobs we have no any other alternatives, those GC employers who are planning to abuse us for any political purposes are in a big mistake."

Everywhere I go they say the quality of work of a TC is the same high standard as that of a GC. Compared of course with the quality of work of the Pontians or the Asians....

TC employees of South also admitted that the secondary reason of why GC employers prefer TC employees is that you mentioned above.

In Summary:
What will cause retaliation of the GCs after a solution is
1)Losing their properties without getting equal TC property on exchange.
2)Losing their properties and getting bonds.
3)Any limitations on visible everyday human rights, like free settlement, free movement free bussiness. (Voting rights are not included!)
4)Abuse by the TCs of their Political power.

As I said above and always, as long as the GC side has insited on a majoritarian federative structure, TCs will never accept such a solution.

In addition to that they will initially look at those settlers who will stay with suspicion until they come to the point of understanding them.If they finally understand they behave with hostility or arrogance then they will retaliate on them economically. If they understand they are just poor people who have nowhere else to go then they will accept them and help them.

So you are sure about that the first hostile action won't arise from any group of GCs against settlers...

[MicAtCyp]

It seems to me that you are very pretentious about it...

That’s insulting, but anyway you are entitled to your opinion.

And with the exception of Chrisy Augi of course....

Correct. It's such a biiiig and powerful organisation with soooo many thousands supporters and sooooo much access to our deep state, that I should always remember it.

If the GCs accept a solution through majority voting they have absolutely no reason to retaliate on the TCs.
The Gcs will retaliate on the TCs ONLY in case they are forced to accept an unfair solution.

However, TC community has already does not consider a solution based upon "majoritarian federalism". If what you said above is true, the majority of GCs do not consider TC community as their politicaly equal partner...

Boy o’ boy !!!! I was referring to majority voting in separate referenda !!!!

But nevertheless, 40.000 GC residents of TC constituent state will be able to sell their properties to GCs, Greeks and Eoropeans in order to prepare the ground becoming the majority of TC constituent state, step by step...

And what do you propose, to donate their properties to the settlers? Furthermore how those 40K will multiply all of a sudden and become majority?

have no idea about what the majority of GCs feel whether to help or not to help TCs in case of a solution but there's one thing I'm sure majority of the ordinary people usually go through where their ruling and leading elite point them to go. This has been proved by experience.

Our ruling elite was Klerides but we kicked his ass off because we did not like what he brought us i.e the Anan Plan. And we do not listen to him after that.Most people did not even wait for Papadopoulos speach to decide about the Anan Plan, and most people were in favour of vetoying Turkey, whereas Papadopoulos did not.

I know that, some GC employers do help TCs. TC employees told me that some of them offer this help sincerely, while others calculate the political profit of their "help".

So the contruction bosses, most of which were simple builders in the past, and most of which have not even graduated the Elementary school do it for Political profit ha? Very funny indeed. Can you tell me what political profit a private construction company may have?

We have to do those jobs we have no any other alternatives, those GC employers who are planning to abuse us for any political purposes are in a big mistake

The ones who are doing a big mistake are the ones who think they are going to be "abused", without even knowing how. Can you tell me what better job can anyone do when he does not even know the language of the place he is working?

So you are sure about that the first hostile action won't arise from any group of GCs against settlers...

If you want me to tell you my opinion, then my opinion is that the first hostile action against the settlers will arise from the TCs!

[insan]

That’s insulting, but anyway you are entitled to your opinion.

pretentious adj. 1. full of pretension; characterized by the assumption of dignity, importance, artistic distinction, etc. 2. making an exaggerated outward show; ostentatious; showy.


Are you sure that what I said was an insult?

In Turkish what I said means: Çok iddialı görünüyorsun(You strongly believe that what you put forward is true and other not.)

Correct. It's such a biiiig and powerful organisation with soooo many thousands supporters and sooooo much access to our deep state, that I should always remember it.

No matter how big and powerful it is, man. A bomb has been thrown by just one of them can cause hundreds to lost their lives and wound... A provocation has been made just a few of them can cause whole Cyprus to go into a big strife. Putting Grey Wolves into front and totally ignoring the existence and potential danger of Chrissy Augy seems to me an intentional behaviour.

And what do you propose, to donate their properties to the settlers? ?

Their right to sell their properties should be restricted only within the GC residents of TC constituent state, for 15 or 20 years time. This is important for a smooth tarnsition period. There should be no major movements which will be considered as a threat or provocation by TCs. Otherwise, if in the first 5 years number of GC residents of TC constituent state has increase to %30 of the total TC population of TC constituent state, TCs would feel themselves under threat of becoming a minority in their own constituent state. This situation, undoubtly would lead us into a constitutional, psychological and intercommunal crisis.

Furthermore how those 40K will multiply all of a sudden and become majority.

Some GC construction componies can buy land from the GCs who are residents of TC constituent state and build hundreds of apartments and houses to sell. Let's say 2000 flats and 500 houses have been built by GC componies in TC constituent state and 2500 GCs have bought them. 2500 GCs with their average number of 4 person family amounts to 10.000. Add the new born children of 40k, total number of GC residents of TC constituent state can easily increase to 50-52k in first 5 years if no restrictions has been put on right to settlement and buy property.

Our ruling elite was Klerides but we kicked his ass off because we did not like what he brought us i.e the Anan Plan. And we do not listen to him after that.Most people did not even wait for Papadopoulos speach to decide about the Anan Plan, and most people were in favour of vetoying Turkey, whereas Papadopoulos did not.

Now you have a new ruling elite in alliance with half of the Klerides' far right wing which is worst for the TCs than the previous one.

So the contruction bosses, most of which were simple builders in the past, and most of which have not even graduated the Elementary school do it for Political profit ha? Very funny indeed. Can you tell me what political profit a private construction company may have?

Partisanship has nothing to do with the education level of the people."Feed them to make them dependent on you". It's that simple. One does not need to have a graduate degree to learn how helpless people can be made dependent.

The ones who are doing a big mistake are the ones who think they are going to be "abused", without even knowing how. Can you tell me what better job can anyone do when he does not even know the language of the place he is working?

There are also so many TCs who speak English well or an average level but couldn't have been given the chance(considered worthy) to work in any other better sectors. You yourself told that most of the GCs don't trust TCs because they have a psychological obsession that in case of a strife or war they think the TCs will naturally take side with their community and hold their guns towards GCs.

If you want me to tell you my opinion, then my opinion is that the first hostile action against the settlers will arise from the TCs!

Why? Is there a specific and logical reason of this?

[MicAtCyp]

Are you sure that what I said was an insult?

Insan gardas
Although the word "iddia" means false claim the word "iddiali" has a very specific meaning i.e a person who always submits false claims/thesis on purpose. That's why the dictionary says iddiali =arrogant or pretentious. You can also see from the dictionary what "pretend" means in Turkish. It is _mis gibi yapmak, or numara yapmak. Both include the meaning of a person doing something faulty or unreal on purpose.
In any case, that was no big deal for me, and I accept your explanation for no bad intentions.

Putting Grey Wolves into front and totally ignoring the existence and potential danger of Chrissy Augy seems to me an intentional behaviour.

There is a huge difference between the two.Grey wolves have support from the deep state, have access to ammunition, have a huge number of members, and they are present in almost every political event. Chrysi Avgi (spell it in Turkish like hrisi avyi=golden dawn) does not have support from anyone, it has very few members, in Cyprus it appeared only once somewhere were Papadopoulos was present trying to get his sympathy, and Papadopoulos himself threw shit in their face and insulted them publicly in front of everybody .Do you think they have any chance at all appearing for a second time?

Their right to sell their properties should be restricted only within the GC residents of TC constituent state, for 15 or 20 years time. This is important for a smooth tarnsition period.

This was not our point of discussion! Our point was the right of sell of the TCs themselves. And the scope of this restriction was for the Tcs to avoid losing their properties to the GCs. So what you say is irrelevant. In addition I said there can be no restriction on the human rights of anyone, that can have as sole purpose benefiting the other side.
And why should they sell only to themselves?why not sell to other GCs, to TCs, to Eurpoeans? Who can ever limit their right to sell to anyone they like? Buying and selling is the backbone of every healthy economy, putting restrictions on that is like stagnating the economy.

There should be no major movements which will be considered as a threat or provocation by TCs. Otherwise, if in the first 5 years number of GC residents of TC constituent state has increase to %30 of the total TC population of TC constituent state, TCs would feel themselves under threat of becoming a minority in their own constituent state. This situation, undoubtly would lead us into a constitutional, psychological and intercommunal crisis.

Again it seems we go back to the matter of restrictions of human rights of movement and settlement of the GCS. What you said can be achieved either by a restriction of human rights of the GCs, or by making your sociological study that can prove it impossible, and thereon TAKE YOUR RISKS.
I hope I am clear. I said this at least 3 times in this discussion.
In addition to that, it is so obvious from every discussion I ever had, from every analysis I made with myself, and from what you said above, that this thing of Bizonal Federation, IS NOT A STABLE SYSTEM. It is going to disintegrate sooner or later to some form of Unitary state not necessarily because GCs will move to the North. Imagine for example if in the future our major bussiness is the Oil of the sea at the South. Where will people rush to find jobs to the North or to the South?

Some GC construction componies can buy land from the GCs who are residents of TC constituent state and build hundreds of apartments and houses to sell. Let's say 2000 flats and 500 houses have been built by GC componies in TC constituent state and 2500 GCs have bought them. 2500 GCs with their average number of 4 person family amounts to 10.000. Add the new born children of 40k, total number of GC residents of TC constituent state can easily increase to 50-52k in first 5 years if no restrictions has been put on right to settlement and buy property.

This is a science fiction scenario.The first thing you should ask is where those people would work to support their families. Second what would happen to the original 40K who will sell their properties. Third whether the GCs are so naive as to go live in an environment totally strange to them. Fourth whether getting a house loan (usually you have to pay monthly for more than 25 years or spend your lifetime savings) is such an easy task, and such an easy decision to make, that almost every GC who will need a house in the next 5 years is going to buy one in an area flooded by TCs.

Partisanship has nothing to do with the education level of the people."Feed them to make them dependent on you". It's that simple. One does not need to have a graduate degree to learn how helpless people can be made dependent.

Be dependent on who??? On the bosses themselves? Who told you the bosses need anyone to be dependent on them? My friend bosses change their employees like shirts, they don't care who they are. I really cannot understand what you have in mind to say this.Do you perhaps think that in the free areas there exists the same relation between employers and Politicians like in the occupied areas? I can assure you NO! There the employers are the Denktashes themselves or some of their relatives. Here the employers and especially those of the construction industry have almost no relation with the Politicians.

There are also so many TCs who speak English well or an average level but couldn't have been given the chance(considered worthy) to work in any other better sectors. You yourself told that most of the GCs don't trust TCs because they have a psychological obsession that in case of a strife or war they think the TCs will naturally take side with their community and hold their guns towards GCs.

English IS NOT the language we communicate in the free areas!!! And I don't remember saying what you say "I said", at least in the same sense as you presented it. HOWEVER give me the name of any qualified Turkish Cypriot CHEF (not simple cook a specialist chef) and I guarantee him a one year contract with a salary upto 2000 pounds a month. Give me the name of any specialist physician with a degree from the USA or Europe, with some knowledge of English, and I am ready to undertake myself all expenses to fully equip him a medical office and be only 25% partner with him. The catalogue can go on...The Tcs my friend have to move their finger a bit and not just wait for easy to find jobs in the construction Industry. It's one year now Denktash opened the gates for them, they are the ones who must take initiatives and grap the money waiting for them out there.

Why? Is there a specific and logical reason of this?

I said it is my opinion didn’t I? By anyway since you want to know the reasoning, this is because at least in the begining they will be the ones in everyday contact with them, not the GCs. How will you stand their arrogance any minute after a solution?

[uzan]

Brother, theres a cat lets go after it together, what you think wav, wav.
Hmmm, damn cat she is going to take our eyes out.
How about some VO otuz bir then?
-Wolf-wolf yeeeeah!
-Serefe arkadasim. No hard feelings...

stop barking and think wav wav and learn to listen other people to.terbiyeli konus,its not only you we have woman and girls in this side bagirmayla hicbirsey elde edemezsin(you cant have anythink by shoutting)learn to listen my be you learn something.

[insan]

stop barking and think wav wav and learn to listen other people to.terbiyeli konus,its not only you we have woman and girls in this side bagirmayla hicbirsey elde edemezsin(you cant have anythink by shoutting)learn to listen my be you learn something.

uzan bey, there's nothing rude what my bro MicAtCyp said. We know each other for more than 2 years. And you also should know that vol:31 is a very famous Cyprus Brandy which %100 of TC men who have alcohol enjoy...

[brother]

31 is one of cyprus finest brandy which i personally enjoyed at christmas and new year.

Hick.........still enjoying it now.

[MicAtCyp]

Uzan Bey,
Forumda hosgeldin yurtasim.Bir saka yaptim, ama genellikle terbiyeliyim sanirim. ( Welcome to the forum my compatriot. I just made a joke, but generally I am a disciplined person I think.)

Kardes bir tane daha? (brother one more?). Hick....

[brother]

yesh pleash.....hick.....

[turkcyp]

If I were the TRNC government right now I would,

1) thank Turkish army and ask them to gradually leave the north in phases, like 1/3 in the next coming 3 years, 1/3 between 3-6 years, and the rest 1/3 of the troops when there is a solution accepted by both sides on the island

2) ask UN or any other third party (USA or EU force) to take over the security of TCs in absence of leaving Turkish army.

3) open the land (including Varosha) that were to return to GCs under Annan Plan into settlement to GCs, and gradually locate the current residents of those land into portion which will not be returned to GCs. Until the solution the administration of this land would be under TCs. Announce that as Annan Plan asked for if there is a solution these lands would be given to Greek State

4) open the villages in Karpas that were going to be in the Turkish State in Annan Plan, but will inhabit its original GC residents, into settlement of those GCs

5) start changing your internal laws in line with EU laws, and do not differentiate between GCs and other EU nationals in terms of those laws. (including the laws related buying property, and voting)

6) start the property commission as described in Annan Plan, appoint its TC members and ask RoC to fill its other members. If RoC refuses to appoint members, then ask EU (or UN, or ECHR) to appoint members. Start financing all the functioning of this commission and start settling the property issue as proposed by the Annan Plan.

7) conduct a census different than the ones before, to correctly identify who are settlers in today’s north population. Arrange these into categories like
- those who father, mother, or spouse is a TC
- those who are born here or spent substantial amount of their life here
- those newcomers that come to island after later.

In short know who come to island when, and become citizen when, and their origins, etc. etc.
so that during negotiations of solution the whole issue of settlers would be much clearer

finance and conduct a scientific survey (may be during census) asking people their views about Annan Plan, which portion of Annan Plan they want improved, what portions of Annan Plan they are willing to compromise more, etc. etc.

9) start applying visa requirements to anybody (including Turks) who is not a EU citizen, also start asking for the passports at every entrance to north cyprus to everybody. Not necesarily stamp the EU members, but ask for those passports to see who is entering and who is staying in the north.

10) Adapt Euro as its currency instead of New Turkish Lira.

These are ten initial points. Feel free to add or deduct some points.

1) Edit. Not even 1/3 of Turkish army is necessary. I would say 3000 highly mobile troops should be more than enough for TC security.
6) Edit. The property commission will be responsible to TRNC courts, and make it compatible to ECHR demands. Change laws in TRNC so that every foreigner including GC can come and obtain property in north. If GCs apply to property board return them all of their land (minus the property that is already inhabited by others as residential, and property that is substantially improved) and pay the rest (the portion which is not returned back) to GCs as fair market prices (payment should not be made as giving them deeds of TC property in the south).
10) Take out Euro and replace it with British Pound. Euro is a non starter as a feasible currency in the next 20 years. My prediction is that it will be abolished in the next 10 years.
11) Addition. Declare that any GC that obtains a property in north (either by reclaiming its pre74 property and/or buying new one) are eligible to come and settle in north, and eventually apply for citizenship of TRNC (if a GC is a refugee who claims his/her pre-74 land then they should be given TRNC citizenship immediately if they want to.), and change its laws to make this possible.


Eveyday TRNC is not doing above, means it is wasting its precious time…