Cyprus-Forum.com

[insan]

1)No! Please enlighten me. An educated guess though: Because those areas are not by the sea perhaps?
2)Properties in the areas that will be returned?? Be returned according to which agreement? According to the non aggreement on the divine plan fabricated by the 3 sold outs De-Soto, Anan, and Verhoigen? What makes you so sure the GCs will EVER accept anything like that?

Sooner or later, either with a solution based upon a Federal structure or partition; those areas will be returned to the GCs... Is it an obvious and inevitable fact or not? TCs who sell lands belong to GCs and the foreign buyers also know this.

The TCs who sell lands belong to GCs are mainly the ones who have equal amount of land in South. And the settlers who sell lands belongs to GCs is considered as they sell the land supposedly given them from the TC state land.

Amongst those TCs and settlers who sell the lands belong to GCs, there are some who are in need of money and sells and there are also some who intentionally sells in order to make the status of land to fit the provisions of Annan Plan and not be returned. This is one of the main economic activity of the people who haven't got any other economic feeding resources, in an unrecognised region.


Conclusion, TCs and settlers selling the lands which belongs to GCs because they suppose the lands which they sell is in the %18 or %20 whatever land percentagely belongs to TCs.

I understand you wanted to say "....would NOT say yes.....". That's perfectly understandable. Now please explain me how this relates to what I ve said in my previous post to which presumably you were answering.

No you translated it wrong my friend...

I said:"Have you ever
thought that majority of TCs would say yes to a plan
which will make them an ineffective minority and lead
them to emigrate from Cyprus."

Code: Select all

Kıbrıslı Türklerin, kendilerini etkisiz bir azınlık yapacak bir plana evet diyeceklerini hiç düşündün mü?

Have you ever thought

TCs would say yes

to a plan which will make them an ineffective minority and lead them to emigrate from Cyprus?

Oh I forgot to put a question mark in the end and I think that's why you confused...


Please have a look at the thread with the subject "polticial equality for all"

What's the relation to your post. You claim that TCs are under strict control of Turkey; even furthermore, Turkish army and therefore they cannot take any initiatives by themselves and cannot decide about their future without the permission of Turkkey. This is not true... I've told you many times before that most of the TCs feel themselves under the crossfire of Turkish and GC leadership. When they consider the pros and cons of the malicious attitudes of both parties they prefer standing on their own position and struggle against the malicious attitudes of Turkish ruling elite instead of going and surrendering to Hellen's ruling elite in order to take revenge of all the exploitations has been made by Turkish ruling elite. The civil coup against Denktash is a consequence of this mentality...

In return I ask you why don't you try to face the reality that both Talat (CTP) and Christofias (AKEL) are not the same as they were before taking the power in their hands. And by the way I never trusted any GC or TC leadership. In fact I tried desparately in the past to convince you to do the same but suprisingly I saw you trusting AKEL. Now even more suprisingly I see TCs trusting DESY....What can I say?

Yes, you are right about that both Talat and Christofias are not the same as they were before and I pointed this out in one of the threads I created on this board, "Talat 1 Christofias 0" and afterwards when I read in an article written by a GC collumnist that Christofias changed his attitude 180 degrees; I made them "Talat 1 Christofias 1". But still I find this guys more credible than Tassos, Denktashes, Klerides, Anastasiades... TCs don't trust DESY and DESY don't trust TCs, in my opinion... They both abuse each other as the consequence of being in the same alliance with different interests and purposes... Remeber your words regarding some big boys calculations of multiplying their wealths a hundred times and please don't make me to write another paragraph to explain you the reasons of this picture re brother...

OK let me try once more. Do not trust any GC or TC leadership. Do not trust the GCs or the TC people as a whole. Trust only those GCs and those TC individuals that have the same social, political, economic, and survival problems like you.

Yeah, that's whom I trust but the day Tassos has been overthrown by a civil coup of GCs, I will trust GCs more than ever...

How? Because we rejected the Anan Plan? I said it a hundred times, people rejected the Plan because it was stealing their properties. 9 out of 10 GCs, did not give a shit on the political system of the Anan Plan. All they cared was their properties and whether they would have the right to return if and when they like.

I said "GC leadership...." ain't I? And many times before I emphasized that there were many justifiable aspects of GCs "no" vote, ain't I?

Having the right does not mean they would return in the end. THAT'S A RISK THE TCS SHOULD TAKE.

TCs took that risk as you know they approved the return of some 40.000 refugees to TC constituent state, in 15 or 20 years time...

And if the TCs are afraid that the GCs will force them to remain propertryless then they should impose restrictions on their own rights not on the rights of the GCs. For example they should impose restrictions on their own rights to sell their properties.

I couldn't understand what you meant here?

Anyway, the Anan Plan was not the result of negotiations but the result of simple orchestrated bying out of 2-3 individuals to tailor a so called "UN Plan" suitable for Turkey, UK, USA and the TCs.

As long as the GC leadership insists on "me on the top and you underneath" i.e "majority rule; no solution plan will be the result of negotiations...

Soon we will have a NEW negotiated process.That is when every single issue will be watched carefully by us, you, the EU, the UN and others. And I tell you the new process will not be a package deal. It will be for every issue separately. Property issue, share of Political Power issue, Settlers issues etc etc. Then we will see if the GC side wants to dominate the TCs, or if it is the other way round. I only hope it is neither of the two, because this is the only way to have a solution.

At this point I agree with you....

[erolz]

Erol, do you understand the difference between an Individual in the EU and the UN, and the decisions made by collective bodies of those Organisations? I hope you do because your statement is nothing less than an over-generalisation. Or should I say I am sure you do, judging from your no reply to my second paragraph?

The Annan plan was the plan of an idividual? Come on. The EU support for the Annan plan (which was not just Verhagen, the whole of the EU as a central body supported the Annan plan and said so) was just 'individuals' but the EU determination that there was no block on RoC entry into the EU before a settlement was a 'group' decsion? Come on.

How things change with time. This is from your own embassy web site

http://www.cyprusembassy.fi/v05/index.p ... 625883_671

"Brussels, Feb 24 (CNA) -- European Union Foreign Ministers and their counterparts from the ten acceding countries have welcomed the preparedness of the European Commission to support the UN Secretary General's renewed effort to find a settlement before Cyprus joins the Union on May 1 this year."

The EU support the Anna plan process. The relevant EU commisioner declared it a 'good plan'. However since the plan was not to your liking the EU support for it was of course just a corrupt GC hating indivdual.

[MicAtCyp]

Erol,
read carefully!
The Anan plan process, and the final Anan plan 5 is not the same thing.In fact if you remember even Papadopoulos supported the procees, thats why he wrote a letter to the UN to start the negotiations.

Do you doubt the final outcome was the work of a few individuals?Do you doubt that it would never pass through the parliaments of any member state? Do you doubt that without its passing the Generals in Turkey would never approve?

By the way have you ever heard the Generals in Turkey saying yes to the Anan Plan. presumably they would gather to decide after it passed as a primary law would't they?

[MicAtCyp]

Quote:
Having the right does not mean they would return
in the end. THAT'S A RISK THE TCS SHOULD TAKE.



TCs took that risk as you know they approved the return
of some 40.000 refugees to TC constituent state, in 15
or 20 years time... Quote:
And if the TCs are afraid that the GCs will force
them to remain propertryless then they should
impose restrictions on their own rights not on the
rights of the GCs. For example they should impose
restrictions on their own rights to sell their
properties.


I couldn't understand what you meant here?

Let me clarify the above two points. Accepting a maximum specific number (1% per year) not only is not a risk but in the end it mean zero or near to zero and you know that very well. A RISK is to accept no limitation on anyones right to return because you made your scientific and social reserach which proves that even if they are ALL allowed to return they will not! If you fall within your predictions you win if you fall a little outside you lose a bit.In the end however you are the winner because you took a risk based on scientific sociological research, and you achived what you wanted without depriving basic human rights from other people! If what you wanted was the 40K I assure you you will win, if what you wanted was ZERO thats another story.

A solution means be ready to undertake reasonable risks! It does not mean violate someone elses rights to be SURE everything will come out as you want.If you want assurances you can violate your own human rights not the rights of others as I will explain below.

The second point is the matter of limiting the human right of GCs to buy/sell properties in the TC Fed State because like you said if this does not apply then in the end the TCs being economically poorer will be forced to sell and remain property-less.
What i said was:WHY limit this human right of GCs? Limit the human right of the TCs to sell. If someone wants limitations of the human rights of the GCs for his own benefit, why not limit his own human rights if this will have exactly the same benefit?
To summarise:
A)TCs want to limit the human right of the GCs to buy property, so that the TCs are protected.
If this apllies the TCs are protected and will never lose their properties.
However if
B)The TCs limit their own right to sell they do not violate any right of the GCs.
If this apllies the TCs are protected and will never lose their properties.

So give me one good reason why the GCs should accept A ,and why not the TCs accept B?

[MicAtCyp]

Brother, theres a cat lets go after it together, what you think wav, wav.
Hmmm, damn cat she is going to take our eyes out.
How about some VO otuz bir then?
-Wolf-wolf yeeeeah!
-Serefe arkadasim. No hard feelings...

[insan]

Do you doubt the final outcome was the work of a few individuals?

There's no doubt it is true. What could those individuals do while Hellen team by leadership of foxt Tassos planning to postpone the negotiations until Cyprus has become a full meber of EU, in dream of European Solution. It is obvious that he and his team hadn't exerted much to get what they demand.

Do you doubt that it would never pass through the parliaments of any member state?

What would never pass through the parliaments of which member states?

Do you doubt that without its passing the Generals in Turkey would never approve?By the way have you ever heard the Generals in Turkey saying yes to the Anan Plan. presumably they would gather to decide after it passed as a primary law would't they?

It is a fact that noone had accepted any version of the Annan Plan as is, not only National Security Council of Turkey. As all other factions of the relevant parties, National Security Council of Turkey had concerns regarding some provisions of Annan Plan and they asked to Erdogan to negotiate those issues as the red lines of Turkey. In a press statement, one week prior to referanda, the chief of the National Security Council of Turkey cleraly stressed out that all their concerns had been negotiated with the government of Turkey and they compromised. What is extraordinary with that? The security issues are the profession of soldiers ain't it? Furthermore when a journalist aske to Ozkok whether he would say "yes" or "no" to Annan Plan; he said "no comment". Moreover when another journalist asked to him if Annan Plan had risks to cause strife among two communities and in case of a intercommunal strife would they intervene militarily; he said that Turkey had strong diplomatic relations and was able to solve all her problems in a diplomatic way. He added that he didn't think there would be such big problems that would be required a military intervention.

[insan]

So give me one good reason why the GCs should accept A ,and why not the TCs accept B?

Both leads to the same door but if it would make GCs happy, ok TCs would accept put temporary restrictions on their right to sell property to GCs or Europeans.


What about the restrictions on right to settlement? 40.000 GC residence of TC constituent state would like to sell their excessive part of land to the ones who offer the best price... And as you well know they would be the GCs, Greeks and Europeans...

Moreover, as a consequence of TCs attitude not to sell their properties to GCs, Greeks and Eoropeans, it is highly probable for TCs to face with a retaliation from them. Those wealthy GCs, Greeks and Europeans might own the big companies in TC constituent state but just for the retaliation in order to opress TCs, they may intentionally might not employ much TCs, e.g limited with %5. Ain't these probable? Who could stop them doing this? GC dominated central state or supreme court?

[insan]

Brother, theres a cat lets go after it together, what you think wav, wav.
Hmmm, damn cat she is going to take our eyes out.
How about some VO otuz bir then?
-Wolf-wolf yeeeeah!
-Serefe arkadasim. No hard feelings...

Re brother, I really missed the sophisticated atmosphere of Cyprus and of course otuz bir... hehehehe. I hope this time when I'll be in Cyprus, we should arrange a day to run after the cats and have our drinks...


Serefe adelfe serefe... Relax...

[MicAtCyp]

Moreover, as a consequence of TCs attitude not to sell their properties to GCs, Greeks and Eoropeans, it is highly probable for TCs to face with a retaliation from them. Those wealthy GCs, Greeks and Europeans might own the big companies in TC constituent state but just for the retaliation in order to opress TCs, they may intentionally might not employ much TCs, e.g limited with %5. Ain't these probable? Who could stop them doing this? GC dominated central state or supreme court?

No what you say is completely un- propable!!! I don't know how many times I have to say it but this is NOT the 60s. Today nobody forms gangs for stupid nationalistic reasons (with the exception of Grey wolves of course). If some people form gangs they do it for their own pocket (mafia gangs). Today the GCs care only for their private goodselves.

If the GCs accept a solution through majority voting they have absolutely no reason to retaliate on the TCs.
The Gcs will retaliate on the TCs ONLY in case they are forced to accept an unfair solution. An acceptance of the TCs to limit their own right BY LAW to sell to GCs instead of limiting the GCs right will be very well understood and appreciated by the GCs. Furthermore currently the majority of GCs feel they want to help the TCs in case of a solution. Even capitalists want the standard of living to equalise the soonest possible so as not to have problems due to economic unequalities. Even today beleive it or not the GC employers do help the TCs. It would be very easy to substitute them with cheap labour from Asian Countries. However they don't do it. Everywhere I go they say the quality of work of a TC is the same high standard as that of a GC. Compared of course with the quality of work of the Pontians or the Asians....

In Summary:
What will cause retaliation of the GCs after a solution is
1)Losing their properties without getting equal TC property on exchange.
2)Losing their properties and getting bonds.
3)Any limitations on visible everyday human rights, like free settlement, free movement free bussiness. (Voting rights are not included!)
4)Abuse by the TCs of their Political power.

In addition to that they will initially look at those settlers who will stay with suspicion until they come to the point of understanding them.If they finally understand they behave with hostility or arrogance then they will retaliate on them economically. If they understand they are just poor people who have nowhere else to go then they will accept them and help them.

[insan]

No what you say is completely un- propable!!!

It seems to me that you are very pretentious about it...

I don't know how many times I have to say it but this is NOT the 60s. Today nobody forms gangs for stupid nationalistic reasons (with the exception of Grey wolves of course).

And with the exception of Chrisy Augi of course....

If some people form gangs they do it for their own pocket (mafia gangs). Today the GCs care only for their private goodselves.

I have no detailed information to make generalizations upon GC community.

If the GCs accept a solution through majority voting they have absolutely no reason to retaliate on the TCs.
The Gcs will retaliate on the TCs ONLY in case they are forced to accept an unfair solution.

However, TC community has already does not consider a solution based upon "majoritarian federalism". If what you said above is true, the majority of GCs do not consider TC community as their politicaly equal partner...

An acceptance of the TCs to limit their own right BY LAW to sell to GCs instead of limiting the GCs right will be very well understood and appreciated by the GCs.

But nevertheless, 40.000 GC residents of TC constituent state will be able to sell their properties to GCs, Greeks and Eoropeans in order to prepare the ground becoming the majority of TC constituent state, step by step...

Furthermore currently the majority of GCs feel they want to help the TCs in case of a solution.

I have no idea about what the majority of GCs feel whether to help or not to help TCs in case of a solution but there's one thing I'm sure majority of the ordinary people usually go through where their ruling and leading elite point them to go. This has been proved by experience.

Even capitalists want the standard of living to equalise the soonest possible so as not to have problems due to economic unequalities.

There's no pilot needed to see what the Cyprus capitalists in dream of... I will not repeat once again because I've stressed it so many times...

Even today beleive it or not the GC employers do help the TCs. It would be very easy to substitute them with cheap labour from Asian Countries. However they don't do it.

I know that, some GC employers do help TCs. TC employees told me that some of them offer this help sincerely, while others calculate the political profit of their "help".


When I asked them to tell me which group is dominant of that two, they told me that the second group which offer help to the TC employess is dominant. And then they asked me a question: "Do you think that we are happy to do those 3rd class jobs which majority of GCs don't like or don't want to do?" and they added: "We have to do those jobs we have no any other alternatives, those GC employers who are planning to abuse us for any political purposes are in a big mistake."

Everywhere I go they say the quality of work of a TC is the same high standard as that of a GC. Compared of course with the quality of work of the Pontians or the Asians....

TC employees of South also admitted that the secondary reason of why GC employers prefer TC employees is that you mentioned above.

In Summary:
What will cause retaliation of the GCs after a solution is
1)Losing their properties without getting equal TC property on exchange.
2)Losing their properties and getting bonds.
3)Any limitations on visible everyday human rights, like free settlement, free movement free bussiness. (Voting rights are not included!)
4)Abuse by the TCs of their Political power.

As I said above and always, as long as the GC side has insited on a majoritarian federative structure, TCs will never accept such a solution.

In addition to that they will initially look at those settlers who will stay with suspicion until they come to the point of understanding them.If they finally understand they behave with hostility or arrogance then they will retaliate on them economically. If they understand they are just poor people who have nowhere else to go then they will accept them and help them.

So you are sure about that the first hostile action won't arise from any group of GCs against settlers...