Cyprus-Forum.com

[humanist]

This is mad, it really is mad. I think the two communities need to go on a referendum again and the questions should be do we want UNIFICATION then take it from there.

This is a question of the heart and nothing else. If people stop feel and think then the answer will come. I am sorry but if we want UNIFICATION then we can deliver it the rest is only excuses.

[DT.]

and the answer you'll get is an overwhelming YES.

Problem is unification to GC's isn't the same word as unification to TC's.

We'll stumble on the definition

[Klik]

We want liberation... Unification is a bad choice of wording. Liberation is also the politically correct.

P.S: I'll start translating what I posted in Greek before about the Plan

[Viewpoint]

and the answer you'll get is an overwhelming YES.

Problem is unification to GC's isn't the same word as unification to TC's.

We'll stumble on the definition

Living in the north and knowing the general climate I would not bank on a YES from the TCs this time as they took the referendum very badly and many have hardened their views towards GCs whereas before there was a more positive atmosphere all together. The momentum has been lost and the current obstructive and negative stance of the GC south only adds to people saying maybe what we have is better than jumping into reunification with GCs.

[DT.]

Well of course, if you were given everything you wanted and in the end the other side voted it down...its natural that you'd sulk.

Still trying to figure out who these crazy 32% of TC's that rejected the plan are??? What else did they want that was not given?

[Viewpoint]

Well of course, if you were given everything you wanted and in the end the other side voted it down...its natural that you'd sulk.

Still trying to figure out who these crazy 32% of TC's that rejected the plan are??? What else did they want that was not given?

Mainly Denktas (Senior) supporters, who are now your biggest fans, did you hear what he said after the referendum, "thank god the GCs said NO"

[DT.]

I know...hilarious wasn't it. As I said apart from these morons, eberyone else got everything they would have wanted. I do not see it as a great deal for someone to accept a great deal for them...

[Pyrpolizer]

Kikapu,

Regarding your first paragraph:
When I asked "Is this the way the TCs are asking their GC compatriots to help them get rid of Turkey?" I did not mean for them to ask Turkey to leave before a solution.I wouldn’t want that if I were a TC myself! I meant to enforce their will on Turkey to achieve a solution, and this way get rid of her.Currently it seems Turkey does whatever she wants. I don’t believe the average TC wants to irritate the Gcs by lighting up a really distrurbing blinking Turkish flag on the mountain all night. Furthermore my question was within the context of what you said would happen to the TCs if the conditions turn such that Turkey annexes the Northern part.

The rest of your post is very well elaborated with good points but I don’t think I can agree with many of them.

For example seeking changes to the Anan Plan immediately after it was rejected, would mean your side asking for changes too, so in the end we would end up to the same denominator i.e a plan very similar to the Anan Plan that would once again would be rejected. Where would that lead us other that just sealing partition? Seeking negotiations immediately after the referendum when your side insisted to just negotiate the Anan plan would immediately lead up to deadlock and final conclussion the only solution is partition. Imo the RoC government did well in freezing the negotiations for a couple of years.

Btw do you rememmber when Talat said he is ready to discuss "everything" and the next day he was corrected by Gul that Turkey can only discuss the Anan Plan?

I would personally love to risk a yes vote if the Anan Plan had lets say a 50-50 chance to work. Unfortunately I could not give the Anan plan even 5%. I accept the argument that the yes vote of the TCs showed that the TCs are not against unification. The problem for me and many GCs is that the percentage of 65% YES of the TCs was actually very low considering how much the Anan Plan was giving them.So a majority yes vote by the TCs can only be appreciated by the GCs for a balance proposal, not for something that is totally against the GCs and almost totally in favor of the TCs. Will the TCs vote yes at such a plan? VP warns us all the time that unless the next plan is as good (for the TCs) as the Anan Plan -and as bad for the GCs i.e, they will vote NO….

In my opinion what the RoC government is doing wrong is that it does not address itself to the TCs. If I were the President I would create a Cy.B.C/RIK Turk, fully manned by TCs, let it be fully independent even free to criticise me, and use that channel to inform the TCs on a weekly basis for what I did towards a solution. I would in fact present Talat a hell lot of alternative offers, but I would not keep silent about it or continue this bankrupt tactic of negotiations behind closed doors. I would also inform the TC public through that media and let them judge by themselves. I would also employ a few highly educated TCs as personal advisors.

[Kikapu]

Kikapu,

Regarding your first paragraph:
When I asked "Is this the way the TCs are asking their GC compatriots to help them get rid of Turkey?" I did not mean for them to ask Turkey to leave before a solution.I wouldn’t want that if I were a TC myself! I meant to enforce their will on Turkey to achieve a solution, and this way get rid of her.Currently it seems Turkey does whatever she wants. I don’t believe the average TC wants to irritate the Gcs by lighting up a really distrurbing blinking Turkish flag on the mountain all night. Furthermore my question was within the context of what you said would happen to the TCs if the conditions turn such that Turkey annexes the Northern part.

The rest of your post is very well elaborated with good points but I don’t think I can agree with many of them.

For example seeking changes to the Anan Plan immediately after it was rejected, would mean your side asking for changes too, so in the end we would end up to the same denominator i.e a plan very similar to the Anan Plan that would once again would be rejected. Where would that lead us other that just sealing partition? Seeking negotiations immediately after the referendum when your side insisted to just negotiate the Anan plan would immediately lead up to deadlock and final conclussion the only solution is partition. Imo the RoC government did well in freezing the negotiations for a couple of years.

Btw do you rememmber when Talat said he is ready to discuss "everything" and the next day he was corrected by Gul that Turkey can only discuss the Anan Plan?

I would personally love to risk a yes vote if the Anan Plan had lets say a 50-50 chance to work. Unfortunately I could not give the Anan plan even 5%. I accept the argument that the yes vote of the TCs showed that the TCs are not against unification. The problem for me and many GCs is that the percentage of 65% YES of the TCs was actually very low considering how much the Anan Plan was giving them.So a majority yes vote by the TCs can only be appreciated by the GCs for a balance proposal, not for something that is totally against the GCs and almost totally in favor of the TCs. Will the TCs vote yes at such a plan? VP warns us all the time that unless the next plan is as good (for the TCs) as the Anan Plan -and as bad for the GCs i.e, they will vote NO….

In my opinion what the RoC government is doing wrong is that it does not address itself to the TCs. If I were the President I would create a Cy.B.C/RIK Turk, fully manned by TCs, let it be fully independent even free to criticise me, and use that channel to inform the TCs on a weekly basis for what I did towards a solution. I would in fact present Talat a hell lot of alternative offers, but I would not keep silent about it or continue this bankrupt tactic of negotiations behind closed doors. I would also inform the TC public through that media and let them judge by themselves. I would also employ a few highly educated TCs as personal advisors.

Pyrpolizer,

On the flag issue , that is located on the the mountain, in my opinion, it should come down, as I have stated before. The size and location ( I have not seen it personally) is nothing more than "in your face" to the GC's. This is intended to insult than draw the two communities together. I'm sure Turkey favours the flag being there, as well as most TC's. As long as there are no constructive methods towards solving the Cypriot problems, each side is going to act like a "school yard children with tit-for-tat".

I'm happy that you disagree with most of my other points. I think disagreements brings out healthy new arguments, that one can learn from, when done in a respectful way.

However, I'm a little confused why you thought further attempts to salvage the GC's rejection on the referendum was a bad idea, concerns being, that the TC's were going to ask for others things, if the GC's wanted to change some of the things, that they did not like in the AP, as a result, further deadlock. Well, if that was the thinking back then, what would be different today, since more negotiations are needed to have an acceptable "plan" for us all, to move forward. As Viewpoint states few posts earlier on this thread, that the TC's position has hardened and will want a better plan than, what the AP provided. I would call this an "stalemate", because each side have painted themselves into a corner.

Wanting to wait couple of years for further negotiations was the intended wish of the RoC government, to use the EU muscle to get better deal for the GC's, and I understand that logic of thinking. If I was in their situation, I may have thought the same way. However, one should be very cautious what the risks are for taking on such a gamble, by trying to improve the cards in your hand. If you throw away couple of low cards, when playing poker, you may receive 2 new cards, that are worse than the ones you threw away.!!

I like your idea on what the RoC government should be doing, and that is to engage the citizens of Cyprus, TC's and GC's in an open forum, with fresh ideas, and let the people know where everyone stands. Since this is not being done, then each year that goes by, more the TC's will accept Turkey as their "Family" as suppose their true countrymen, the GC's and the RoC. With this , will come the permanent partition of Cyprus, and even, eventual Annexation of Northern Cyprus by Turkey. Long term occupations of Cyprus by Turkey, will cement Turks from Turkey to become the "new" countrymen of the GC's in Cyprus, even if there is a solution somewhere down the road. I'm sure that is a road, that Turkey will continue to extend, to keep a solution being found anytime soon, in order to cement their presence in Cyprus. If the TC's do not see this from becoming a reality, and themselves becoming a "small minority" in the "TRNC", is because they do not see a better proposals and options from the RoC, which is why I left you with a question in my last post, which was " do you think, that the RoC wants peace in Cyprus" knowing full well, what the RoC needs to give up, in order to achieve it.

[skipper]

On the flag issue , that is located on the the mountain, in my opinion, it should come down, as I have stated before. The size and location ( I have not seen it personally) is nothing more than "in your face" to the GC's. This is intended to insult than draw the two communities together. I'm sure Turkey favours the flag being there, as well as most TC's. As long as there are no constructive methods towards solving the Cypriot problems, each side is going to act like a "school yard children with tit-for-tat".

I dont know about Turkey, but most TC's would n't mind the flag going but since the referendum nearly all TC's would say "why should we make the jesture? the GC's would only make it out as some kind of victory against us and throw it back in our face". Whether that would be the case or not, thats pretty much how it is at the moment.

However, I'm a little confused why you thought further attempts to salvage the GC's rejection on the referendum was a bad idea, concerns being, that the TC's were going to ask for others things, if the GC's wanted to change some of the things, that they did not like in the AP, as a result, further deadlock. Well, if that was the thinking back then, what would be different today, since more negotiations are needed to have an acceptable "plan" for us all, to move forward. As Viewpoint states few posts earlier on this thread, that the TC's position has hardened and will want a better plan than, what the AP provided. I would call this an "stalemate", because each side have painted themselves into a corner.

Well after the referendum we waited for the AKEL, who said the "soft no", do just that. But in time we came to see that the "Soft no" was just as hard as everyone elses, and as such even in rejection GC's were decieving.

TC's positions have hardend over time, both towards the GC's and the EU. Most TC's believe that the way the GC's acted during the referendum period show that their position was hard long before and is even harder now. So when GC's leaders say "we're doing this because we love our TC citizens" TC's see it as a kind of husband who says he beats his wife because he loves her so much.

Wanting to wait couple of years for further negotiations was the intended wish of the RoC government, to use the EU muscle to get better deal for the GC's, and I understand that logic of thinking. If I was in their situation, I may have thought the same way. However, one should be very cautious what the risks are for taking on such a gamble, by trying to improve the cards in your hand. If you throw away couple of low cards, when playing poker, you may receive 2 new cards, that are worse than the ones you threw away.!!

I think GC's and other Europeans have gravely misunderstood Turkey in this respect. Infact the Turkey of today is much less willing to do anything for EU membership than the Turkey of ten to fifteen years ago. Those days the politicans would do anything for short term relief since nearly every day there was a crises and people would vote for parties who promised them ludicrus things like cars. Things have matured a little but obviously they have a long way to go as far as I am concerned.

I like your idea on what the RoC government should be doing, and that is to engage the citizens of Cyprus, TC's and GC's in an open forum, with fresh ideas, and let the people know where everyone stands. Since this is not being done, then each year that goes by, more the TC's will accept Turkey as their "Family" as suppose their true countrymen, the GC's and the RoC. With this , will come the permanent partition of Cyprus, and even, eventual Annexation of Northern Cyprus by Turkey. Long term occupations of Cyprus by Turkey, will cement Turks from Turkey to become the "new" countrymen of the GC's in Cyprus, even if there is a solution somewhere down the road. I'm sure that is a road, that Turkey will continue to extend, to keep a solution being found anytime soon, in order to cement their presence in Cyprus. If the TC's do not see this from becoming a reality, and themselves becoming a "small minority" in the "TRNC", is because they do not see a better proposals and options from the RoC, which is why I left you with a question in my last post, which was " do you think, that the RoC wants peace in Cyprus" knowing full well, what the RoC needs to give up, in order to achieve it.

I think with regards to "family" after the referendum peoples views towards Turkey changed drastically. I dont want to intentionally dishearten you because I can see you truely believe in what you say but at the same time I feel obliged to tell you how it is at the moment with this little story.

I have a relative who was studying in Istanbul from a few years before the referendum, I dont really like to label people but this guy was a leftist and his parents where hardcore leftists (infact communists before the USSR collapsed). He was a true believer in cypriotness, a member of the a number of peace organisations in cyprus and had even staged a demonstration outside the TC embassey in Istanbul with banners such as "Peach in cyprus cannot be prevented". This was at a time before protests were not that well tolerated in Turkey. He had a internet mailing list that was infiltrated by a Turkish secret sevice agent, comments published in a Turkish newspaper that resulted in threats of violence and finally a court case opened against him and his friends.

So what happened to this guy? He's now 27 and is still a leftist, however he does n't ever believe there will be a solution, he's now got no problem with building on GC land, when talking about GC's comming back to the north he says "Well their situation is sad but I think it would be better if they stay in the south" and when talking about Turkey he says "if we did n't have Turkey we'd be completely screwed". Granted this is an extreme change and he was young at the time but the general trend amonst TC's reflect what I have discribed.

If the present climate stays as it is, in five years time I dont see there being any will for a solution.