Cyprus-Forum.com

[Pyrpolizer]

Btw the Anatolian settlers came here because they gave them stolen GC houses and properties. As far as I know there in no more stolen GC property left to give anyone, otherwise we would even see the Bulgarian Turk of the forum rush into his lovely pseudo and join his compatriots and their Turkish Bulgarian association of settlers at the occupied.So there is no chance for the number of settlers to increase. It already reached the maximum possible.

However, yes there’s always the possibility of substituting the remaining TCs who would eventually abandon the place. This is for the TCs to worry about.

[Bananiot]

The Annan plan No 5 evolved from previous versions, 1, 2 etc. What is important to understand here is that half way through the effort there were changes in government here in Cyprus as well as in Greece. Actually, it was after the 3rd version was submitted that Papadopoulos took over.

Papadopoulos, a known reactionary, nationalist and sick anti-turk since the early 50`s, would never support a plan based on Bizonal, Bicommunal Federation in which the two communities would be politically equal. Thus, he did everything in his power to reduce plan 3 to anything that he could sell to the people as unacceptable. He even refused to claim Karpasia, which was there for the taking. Despite all these, Annan Plan 5 is miles better than what we will eventually get. Cypriots in general fail to see far ahead (not so far in this case) but eventually, I have no doubt in my mind, we will be sorry we listened to Papadopoulos and his cronies and said the loud no.

Pyrpolyser said

I admire the way you manipulate the TCs into beleiving you. People like you will be very successful in case we ever have a solution in getting votes from the TCs. Keep up the practice.

Obviously Pyrpolyser thinks that I do not subscribe to what I am saying and that I am just trying to appease the Turkish Cypriots for some weird purpose. This patronising, ie trying to "explain" the behaviour of people based on his own little complexes does not touch me. Throughout my life I have been a proponent of peaceful coexistence, friendship and solidarity for all people that leave in Cyprus. Our present day predicament was brought about by people that could not shed their nationalism and found easy targets among the Turkish Cypriots. Before 1974, when we were on top, everything was saintly in Cyprus and these morons that now shout about human rights kept silent at the time. Now that we are the weak party, they have suddenly discovered european principles and human rights that are violated by those that we kept as second and third clas citizens.

I have no problem in shouting out the truth for I know that only the truth will eventually serve the proper interests of Cyprus.

[humanist]

Not sure how to do the quote thing yet.

In response to Viewpoints proposal that the two communities do not want to live together, I can safely say that the majority of Greek Speaking Cypriots would want to live together with Turksih Speaking Cypriots .... they may object to living together with settlers ... rightly or wrongly ... who is to say.

Re-write the Annan Plan and include all refugees the right to return ( and many will not there are at least 25,0000 Greek Speaking Cypriots in Australia alone most likely none will return) and a more realistic time line for the return and put it to referendum and see the results.

[humanist]

Andri, that was a good point you have made why hasn't the RoC government come up with counter proposal and why hasn't the Turkish Speaking Cypriot leadership given an alternative to the Annan Plan?

What I would also like to note is a lot of discussion appears to be concentrating on the fact that sometime back in history some Greek Speaking Cypriots wanted to become one with Greece ...... is the aspiration of Turksih Speaking Cypriots to become one with Turkey in 2006,7,8............?

I suggest we all read Conversations with God books 1, 2 & 3 then resume discussion on this forum. Great books about power, politics, Love and Peace. Lucky Neale Walsch as if he hasn't got enough millions already he' break the bank wth all of us bying his books.

[Kikapu]

However, yes there’s always the possibility of substituting the remaining TCs who would eventually abandon the place. This is for the TCs to worry about.

Pyrpolizer,

As Bananiot pointed out, as I have few times before, that the possibility of Turkey Annexing Northern part of Cyprus for herself, if there are no solutions to the Cyprus Problems or Turkey's refusal entry to the EU, then the possibility will remain very real in the near future.

What would that mean to the Turkish Cypriots living in the Northern Part of Cyprus today and those living abroad.?

If Annexation took place, TC's will no longer be regarded as TC's. TC's will become foreigners in their own neighbourhood. I visit Turkey once in a while to see my sister and enjoy a holiday there, but I do not have very much in common with an average Turk from Turkey, so you are right to point out, that remaining TC's in the North will eventually either die or leave for other destinations, and one of the destinations I see becoming very popular, will be the ROC.!! Let look at this from a TC's point of view.

TC's will be able to claim their land back in the ROC or be paid compensation.

They can get European passports to move anywhere in Europe, and travel other parts of the world trouble free.

They can once again regain their Cypriotness.

TC's living abroad can move back to ROC along with TC's moving "South" to form their own community within the ROC. We are good doing that in London.

TC's do not have to rely on the "Greek Government" to treat them fairly, since there is the European Court to appeal to, if needed. ROC being in the EU, will be a major plus point to safeguards the "minority TC's". In time, TC's will form their own politicians to enter the ROC government.

Living standards will be higher than the Annexed North, and many Cypriots coming from other EU countries, will come with their wealth and enjoy a better life than where they are now. In fact, most TC's will be better off economically than average Cypriots living in the ROC, therefore, they will be able wield some political power.

So, it is possible, few years after Turkeys Annexation of 37% of Northern Cyprus, the remaining 67% will once again, have TC's and GC's living side by side as they did for Centuries, only it will be more crowded due to loss of Northern Part of Cyprus and forced to live at much reduced area along with other immigrants.

Now, wouldn't that be an Irony, after what we all went through, to all end up back where we all started from, only, Turkey being 60 miles away before, will only be stone throw away.!!

[Klik]

So, it is possible, few years after Turkeys Annexation of 37% of Northern Cyprus, the remaining 67% will once again, have TC's and GC's living side by side as they did for Centuries

It's more like around 150 years, that centuries... But people neglect that, given that it's the recent 150 years, and it seems like the only case. Before that 150 years, we were murdered/slaugthered by them...

Anyway, I'm gonna some parts of a short definition of the Annan plan by the newspaper Politis, but it's in Greek. I won't translate it right away, so if someone is willing to do so, then just go for it.

65. Καταδικάζεται ο εποικισμός στο σχέδιο Ανάν;

Όχι. Η λέξη «έποικος» δεν συναντάται ούτε μια φορά στο σχέδιο Ανάν. Τα συμπεράσματα αναφορικά με την παραμονή των εποίκων εξάγονται έμμεσα, από την ερμηνεία διατάξεων που αφορούν στην ιθαγένεια.

66. Ποιοι θα είναι οι Κύπριοι πολίτες κατά την εγκαθίδρυση της Δημοκρατίας;

Σύμφωνα με το σχέδιο Ανάν, πολίτες της Κυπριακής Δημοκρατίας θα θεωρούνται όσοι είχαν την κυπριακή ιθαγένεια το 1963, οι απόγονοί τους, καθώς και οι σύζυγοί τους. Επιπρόσθετα, κάθε πλευρά θα παραδώσει ένα κατάλογο που μπορεί να περιλαμβάνει μέχρι 45.000 ονόματα προσώπων, τα οποία θα θεωρούνται Κύπριοι πολίτες.

67. Ποια θα είναι τα κριτήρια για συμπερίληψη σε αυτό τον κατάλογο;

Στον κατάλογο αυτό θα περιλαμβάνονται, κατά προτεραιότητα, όσα πρόσωπα ηλικίας 18 ετών και άνω είχαν μόνιμη διαμονή στην Κύπρο για τουλάχιστον επτά έτη πριν φτάσουν την ηλικία των 18 ετών και για τουλάχιστον ένα έτος κατά τη διάρκεια των τελευταίων πέντε ετών, καθώς και τα ανήλικα παιδιά τους που διαμένουν μόνιμα στην Κύπρο. Επίσης, όσα πρόσωπα είχαν μόνιμη διαμονή στην Κύπρο για τουλάχιστον επτά συνεχόμενα έτη με βάση τη διάρκεια παραμονής τους.

69. Δηλαδή, πόσοι έποικοι νομιμοποιούνται συνολικά;

Οι περισσότεροι. Πολιτογραφούνται ως Κύπριοι όχι μόνο όσοι έποικοι έχουν τελέσει γάμο με Τουρκοκυπρίους (δηλαδή οι καθαρά ανθρωπιστικές περιπτώσεις), αλλά και 45.000 επιπλέον έποικοι τους οποίους θα επιλέξει η τουρκική πλευρά. Επιπρόσθετα, όμως, θα πρέπει να ληφθεί υπόψη η δυσκολία εξακρίβωσης της ιδιότητας των απογόνων των Τουρκοκυπρίων, σε περίπτωση που η τουρκοκυπριακή πλευρά παραθέσει αναληθή στοιχεία αναφορικά με το θέμα αυτό.

(I posted this as those that were in doubt mostly are Greek-speaking )

[Pyrpolizer]

Klik show respect to the TC participants of the forum and provide an English translation

[Pyrpolizer]

Kikapu,

There is not even one single iota in what you said that I disagree.
The question is what can the GCs do about it?
It mostly depends on the TCs.

A couple of days ago I was travelling from Larnaca to Nicosia at night. Suddenly I see something on the Pentadaktylos/Beshparmak mountain lighting up. It was a star. Then the crecent. Then the whole huge flag of Turkey. Yes of Turkey!!!!!! Never noticed that before...

My question thus: Is this the way the TCs are asking their GC compatriots to help them get rid of Turkey?

[michalis5354]

The Gcs can prepare a plan that secure the righst of the GCs according to the current constitution without violating any rights of the TCs and propose it to the UN. This will receive a higher acceptance and recognition from EU and UN rather than sitting behind and waiting the magic solution to fall from the sky .

[Kikapu]

Kikapu,

There is not even one single iota in what you said that I disagree.
The question is what can the GCs do about it?
It mostly depends on the TCs.

My question thus: Is this the way the TCs are asking their GC compatriots to help them get rid of Turkey?

Pyrpolizer,

In all honesty, I do not think, that the TC's are about to ask Turkey to leave the island, with or without the GC's help. As you know, I do not live in Cyprus, but those TC's that do, cannot and will not ask Turkey to leave, after being rescued from what ever outcome was planned for the TC's, after the 1974 attack by the Greeks (Greece) and the GC's Nationalist, to take over the whole island, in the name of Enosis. How do you "bite the hand that have saved you".?? We can all argue about the real threats to the TC's during these times, but all one needs to know is, that some TC's were killed, and that the rest are alive today, because they believe, it was the actions of Turkey's intervention / invasion that saved them.

What can the GC's can do about it, you ask.??

As individuals, not too much. As a government, once the AP failed the referendum, the ROC should have been on the case to seek some changes and compromises, to propose it back to the UN, while the negotiations were still hot, but instead, ROC chose to play their other option, which was to use the EU muscle, to twist Turkeys arm, as she seeks to enter the EU herself. Instead we find ourselves, that negotiations have gotten cold and EU has not been able to twist Turkey's arm at all.

As Viewpoint always pointed out to you and others, that TC's voted YES on the only plan that was ever presented to us ALL, to solve the present standoff, and the GC's said NO. Again, we can all argue about the details of the AP, but Cyprus needed a jump start into something, but that something was never given a chance. Once again, Turkey came away the winner, with the NO vote, by the GC's.

The ROC can still make changes and compromises to the AP, and make a sincere proposal to the TC's that they cannot refuse. If it is in the interest of both parties to benefit from these proposals, I can't see why the TC's would object to them. This may sound contradictory to what I wrote in the first paragraph, that the TC's will not ask Turkey to leave, but that is because, the TC's do not have anything better in a way of fresh proposals that will counter what Turkey is offering, which is peace and security. The TC's did say YES to the AP, so I do not think, we are against a solution to the Cyprus problem.

Yes, it does depend on the TC's to keep the present situation as is or make changes, and the GC's have very little chance of doing too much about it, as long as, present political situation remains as such, because the TC's will always point the finger to the GC's as being the obstructionist to the last proposals ( rightly or wrongly), the AP, which the TC's said YES to. So now, it will be up to the ROC to come back with a better offer, since the EU arm twisting is not going nowhere with Turkey. The ball is really in the ROC court.

Most Governments have hidden agendas that benefit the rich and the powerful, even at the expense of their own peoples suffering and misery. If this can be true in what perceived to the the greatest Democracy ever, the USA, it can be also true in Cyprus, so the question I would like to leave with you is, how much does the ROC wants peace in Cyprus.??