Cyprus-Forum.com

[elko]

Who the f..k are you , a Bulgarian Turk offering advice , may I suggest you stick your nose up some one else's business and leave Cypriots to sort their own problems.

Typical Greek Cypriot response. When they run out of reason they resort to insults. Very familiar.
Sorry you lot, with Papadop and people like him Cyprus will be partioned permanently. The only trouble is how are we going to stop "enosis" with Turkey when that time comes? Of course in the long run you know what that means for south Cyprus too
ismet

[Kikapu]

I think with regards to "family" after the referendum peoples views towards Turkey changed drastically. I dont want to intentionally dishearten you because I can see you truely believe in what you say but at the same time I feel obliged to tell you how it is at the moment with this little story.

Skipper,

Unless I have misunderstood your "little story", I think you're agreeing with me on TC's seeing Turkey, as their "family" more than their countryman, because the continuation of no progress between the two communities. I do believe though, in the long run, the TC's will lose their "Cypriot Identity", because of the TC's & Turkey "family unoin" in the "TRNC". For the TC's, since at present, there does not seem to be a working solution to UNITE the island, long term future problems are just that, long term future problems.!!!

[skipper]

Skipper,

Unless I have misunderstood your "little story", I think you're agreeing with me on TC's seeing Turkey, as their "family" more than their countryman, because the continuation of no progress between the two communities. I do believe though, in the long run, the TC's will lose their "Cypriot Identity", because of the TC's & Turkey "family unoin" in the "TRNC". For the TC's, since at present, there does not seem to be a working solution to UNITE the island, long term future problems are just that, long term future problems.!!!

Yes I was n't disagreeing with you per-se, I just wanted to give you an example of the kind of changes in mentality that has happened in 2.5 years, extrapolate what the case will be in 5 or 10 years time.

It's just that these "little stories" are what I have noticed as the dynamic of the situation has changed another example is at the time of and a couple of years before the referendum the majority of the youth tried to further themselves from the Turkish element of their identity, for example instead of "Turkish Cypriot" writing "Turkishcypriot" became fashionable, infact an environment developed where people would say "I'm not Turkish I'm Cypriot" nearly all of the sentiment has now gone.

Most TC's dont see Turkey as the "Motherland" more as a big brother character, since the Ottoman Empire and Turkey are n't the same thing.

I dont think TC's will lose their "Cypriot Identity" since a TC of now is not the same as a TC of the 1950's and thats not due to people arriving from Turkey. Television and Music from Turkey has affected TC's in much the way that Greek media has affected GC's. People dont know how to cook traditional food like Kolokas or Molohiya and not because of Turkey but because people dont learn how to cook and when they do learn cook they're more interested in "European" style food.

Another little story I'd like to mention, I overheard an interesting conversation in a shop I was in where a pretty girl entered and the owner started a conversation. He asked her where she was from and she said some village but then added "although my parents are from Trabzon", but then went on to say "they insist on me saying I'm from Trabzon too, although I am a cypriot". Even more interestingly, these young people who have been born in Cyprus, when going to Turkey to visit relatives find that they cant stand the place and could n't imagine living there, granted most have n't come from places like Istanbul or Izmir but it does go to show the influence has n't been a one way thing.

I'ill also let you into another lesser known fact, most of the people who came from Turkey would not favour the annexion of the north to Turkey simply because most came here to get away from Turkey and not to settle here for some political reason. They came here for the same reason alot of TC's & GC's went to England, to make a better life for themselves, they know what Turkey is and now what annexation would mean.

The annextion issue is also linked to the economic situation, in the same way as GC's became richer the idea of union with Greece became less fashionable. At the moment the standard of living in the north even though it is half that of the GC's is still above Turkey's, if that was to reverse sentiment could change so the policy of keeping TC's realtively poor in order to keep them interested in a solution could back fire in the future as Turkeys economy gets stronger.

Anyhow, as usual I've said more than I intended to.

[Kikapu]

I dont think TC's will lose their "Cypriot Identity" since a TC of now is not the same as a TC of the 1950's and thats not due to people arriving from Turkey. Television and Music from Turkey has affected TC's in much the way that Greek media has affected GC's. People dont know how to cook traditional food like Kolokas or Molohiya and not because of Turkey but because people dont learn how to cook and when they do learn cook they're more interested in "European" style food. .

Skipper,

I have not been in Cyprus since I left, in 1964, so most of what I write, is based on predictions rather than first hand knowledge, so I always accept to be corrected, if I wonder off too far into the "cuckoo land". I do not have a crystal ball to read from, but rather what nature will do, over period of time.

Being born in Cyprus, in the future generations, will not be enough to save recent pasts or even today's understanding of what it means to have a "Turkish Cypriot Identity". As the true TC's numbers decline with time, and more and more Turks come from Turkey, and add to that, inter-marriages, "TRNC" will become "Little Turkey" with or without Partition or Annexation. My twin sister has been living in Turkey for the past 35 years, and she has definitely lost her"Cypriot Identity" in comparison to rest of her siblings and parents, in the way she talks and the words she uses. You would think, she is from Turkey, if you did know her.

As for me, having lived in England, USA and now in Switzerland, when I speak Turkish, any Turk would know, I'm from Cyprus, despite being gone for 42 years. As for cooking Molohiya, which is my all time favourite food, I make it twice a year, when ever I can get my hands on fresh supply from family members, who bring it with them from Cyprus to UK. I can't get Kolokas here, so never cook it, but enjoy eating it, when ever family cooks it in the UK.

[Pyrpolizer]

@ Kikapu,

Do I notice a shift towards quality posts lately considering also the posts of our friend Skipper?

Generally I believe you over weight the EU bid regarding the decision of the GCs to vote down the Anan Plan. I can assure you this was not the reason. Very few GCs voted against the Anan Plan thinking we would be able to get a better deal through the EU.
It seems from what you and many TCs say, that you -and most TCs- think otherwise….

What most TCs also seem to misunderstand is that the Cyprus problem as it stands today, is not a matter of equal give and take. Land and properties claimed by GCs are not equally exchangable with political representation in a United Cyprus. In fact most TCs (not to mention the settlers) would never accept such a deal. I believe the reason why the Cyprus problem cannot be solved is because a)The Gcs dont have anything of equal importance to offer in exchange b)The Tcs don’t want to give up what they consider more valuable to what the GCs can offer in exchange.

You wonder why on earth the RoC government is using the EU bid where as you say they run the risk of having thrown 2 bad cards and eventually get 2 other cards that might be worse. The answer is simple. Because when one loses, he has no other choice. On the other hand the TCs think the GCs are doing that because they want to get as much as possible. I hope you see the difference between the 2 views.

I totally agree with you that as time passes with no possitive steps forward we the GCs are losing the TCs, Turkey may finally annex the Northern part, partition may get cemented and the Cypriots (both GCs and TCs) lose for ever. So what do you think the GCs and the Tcs should do to avert this possibility?

Your question whether the RoC governing elites really want reunification or not, was indeed one of the questions I asked myself in the past. The only way to check this is to watch what the RoC Government is doing. For example suppose you were RoC government and you would like the status quo to remain. What would you do regarding the recent incident at the English school? Would you encourage it or would you suppress it? What would you do regarding the current collapse of the Electricity generators at the northern part? Would you give Electricity within 24 hours, or would you find 100 excuses to refuse?

@ Skipper.

Hello Skipper, nice to read your quality post as I said before.

You are right in saying the TCs feel very disapointed against the GCs after the referendum. I would feel the same if I were a TC.

The problem as I see it comes because the 2 communities been forced to live separately for 30+ years could not just suddenly understand each other. I noticed this lack of understanding even before the referendum!
For example did you notice how different was the treatment of the TCs dowards the GCs compared to the treatment of the GCs towards the TCs after the opening of the gates in 2002? The Tcs were almost having a party, the GCs were looking at the Tcs coldheartly. For the TCs it looked as if their problems came to an end, for the GCs it was obvious they were not ever near solving their problems. It was just a witnessing of their 1974 loss.
Then the Anan Plan came where the Tcs just re-affirmed their beleif that everything should be over soon, and when someone told them "why are you celebrating the GCs on the other side are moaning" this came like a shock to them.The Tcs could not understand why the GCs were not happy. For The Tcs it was enough that the solution came from the UN so it should be good, for the GCs it was unbeleivable that the UN presented them a solution that was violating their own UN resolutions and the human rights of the GCs on their properties…

Unfortunately I don’t see the 2 communities today coming into better terms in understanding each other either. In fact I see the original feelings of joy (from the TCs) and coldness (from the GCS) now turning into hate.
Your example of your communist relative once risking his life in Turkey demonstrating "Kibrista barish …" and now turning himself into an indifferent person of building on GC property without giving a damn is indicative of the situtation.

The question is what’s next? Do we move towards an understanding and a solution acceptable to all or do we continue like this for as long as it lasts? You said that if this continues for another 5 years then there will be absolutely no will from the TCs for a solution.

I don’t doubt what you said is true. In fact I see it happening already-your communist relative is not just an isolated case….
So if within 5 years as you said the vast majority of TCs don’t want a solution, then where will that leave the GCs and their rights? Do you think they will forget about them and the Cyprob stop to exist anymore?
Notice the majority of the GCs think the TCs never really bothered much in wanting a solution. The stream among the GCs is that the TCs started wanting a solution just when RoC would enter the EU thinking that this would mean it would start raining Euros.

So far I never heard from any TC how their life was between 1974 and 2002 (time when Denktas opened the gates) neither did I ever hear when exactly they started wanting a solution and what they expected to give and take through that solution. I asked this question hundreds of times but never received any answer. Perhaps you can enlighten us.

[skipper]

I think there is an element that alot of people miss with regards to the time of the referendum. The popular movement at the time was n't just about the cyprus problem, people had got fed up with Denktas and the UBP government and all the corruption and favouritism that was going on, in TC terms it really was a revolution. The feeling was that Denktas did n't care about the TC's and that he had stayed in power all these years due to massive favouritism given to his supporters, the support given to him by Turkey and by continuously scaring tactics at elections that "the other party would sell us out to the GC's". At the time people saw the TRNC and its institutions as a thing that made people with the right connections rich and gave their relatives well paying goverment jobs where they could sit down all day and do nothing. The climax came when it became clear that the GC's would enter the EU representing the whole island, people saw the dangers and where extremely angry at they way Denktas handled the whole situation thats why solving the Cyprus problem suddenly came on to the agenda, not because they wanted something for nothing (something which the GC's seem to level at the TC's very often). What TC's wanted was the end of Denktas and solving the Cyprus problem which would ultimately also mean the end of the TRNC but that would not be a problem as most TC's did n't have any affection for it in the first place, basically a new start. Also I cant understate the level of animosity towards Turkey too at the time especially by the youth of the country which relflected back by the nationalist Turkish press calling TC's traitors and ingrates.

This want for change came to a head with the opening of the checkpoints, it was a way of taking the pressure off people at the top, I guess there was a hope by Denktas for clashes. The "party" atomosphere was because people power had won out to opening the checkpoints, something which seemed an impossibility it felt like real change was happening and that peoples voices mattered. The TC youth got to see the south and fulfill the curiosity that had been eating at them for all this time.

This was the start of the changes, soon the UBP was out of power too and TC's had Talat who was a breath of fresh air compared to Denktas and Eroglu, someone who talked sense and in a positive light. Denktas stepped aside in negotiations and soon we had progress on the Annan plan too, people had hope. Of course even before the referendum how the GC's would vote started to become clear, the EU started saying to the TC's "dont worry, we can see the changes you have gone through and you want to solve the problem, we promise to help you and wont abandon you".

Well the referendum happened and some people where shocked at the scale of the GC "no" and whilst some were n't surprised at all, TC's were still hopeful that changes could be made to the plan.

So TC's waited and waited.. no movement on a solution, promised EU aid and trade blocked by the GC's and the GC's using the EU in a way that was forseen by everyone but ignored by Denktas and the start of a war of words between the two sides that is now very bitter. The attitude towards the TRNC and Turkey changed too. TC's started to see the TRNC as the only thing that they had and instead of being indifferent to it put their efforts into improving it and defending it. The attitude towards Turkey had already started to change with the AKP came to power, Erdogan seemed to be willing to listen to TC's concerns and with the failing of the EU's promises people were more grateful for the hundreds of millions of dollars that Turkey sends. Of course its not all that rosey, people now realise that who ever is in power corruption and favouritism are still rampantent and TC's would rather not have to depend on Turkey for handouts and people are n't naive into thinking that there are no strings attached with the money.

TC's feel they are still under seige, but the GC's have ensured that atleast when it comes to the cyprus problem there is a level of solidarity in TC society that was n't was n't there before.. it's pretty much a case "when we a being constantly attacked by the GC's why are we fighting amongst ourselves". Also, it seems to me GC's have stengthened the TRNC amongst TC's themselves, something even Denktas could n't do, I find that ironic as I write this.

With regards to the future, I feel that unless there is a drastic event I see things staying how they are here.The TC's attitude towards GC's have been posioned, it's like all the messages of friendship seem like a some kind of smokescreen and the how GC's "really" feel coming to the surface. You then have people who lived between the 63-74 saying "this is how it was before" now being listened to instead of being ignored by the youth.

If the economic situation continues to improve, younger TC's who left the island will come back or if it gets worse TC's will leave (and not go live in the south as some would think).

Kikapu, personally I dont think the loss of the Turkish Cypriot dialect is one that is solely down to the cyprus problem. How my grandmother speaks and how I speak is very different and growing up I never had any contact with people from Turkey. You have children who have a Turkish Cypriot accent but parents speak in a dialect of Turkish that most people from Turkey would n't understand either. Change in dialect is a normal thing, especially with a globalised world and satellite TV. I'm not saying there is not a threat but what I'm saying is that characteristics like the food people eat and so forth are being lost because they've gone out of fashion or people just have no interest in them. Also it seems that TC's here a much more willing to embrace foreign elements compared to say TC's who live in England, the strangest example of this was a TC couple I met who gave their a child a "European" name, but then again there is an element of snobery in TC society which is more likely to be the reason behind this example.

[humanist]

I for one don't care anymore lets leave things as they are isolated TC's in the North, Turkey out of EU and everyone's happy. TC's have trade via Famagusta port so they can get by all is well. Lets shut down the border crossings also to really keep out of each others way.

[Viewpoint]

I for one don't care anymore lets leave things as they are isolated TC's in the North, Turkey out of EU and everyone's happy. TC's have trade via Famagusta port so they can get by all is well. Lets shut down the border crossings also to really keep out of each others way.

This is the type of attitude I warned will develop over time after the referendum. Compare humanists posts when he first joined to what he says today, the reality has hit him just like it did me after the referendum and over the past 3 years, our actions will shape our future and we are on a fast track to cemented partition people should realize this and accept that the Cyprus problem is not solvable via unity but by 2 separate states living on this island as neighbours.

[pitsilos]

weak minds think alike

[Pyrpolizer]

This is the type of attitude I warned will develop over time after the referendum. Compare humanists posts when he first joined to what he says today, the reality has hit him just like it did me after the referendum and over the past 3 years, our actions will shape our future and we are on a fast track to cemented partition people should realize this and accept that the Cyprus problem is not solvable via unity but by 2 separate states living on this island as neighbours.

The next step for you is to realise that if the Cyprus problem has 1 degree of difficulty in getting solved with re-unification, the 2 separate states solution you so much lone for, has a degree of difficulty of 100, and some long long years living under the current status quo. Obviously you missed the part of humanists post talking about continuation of the status quo, and jumped directly to the day after that thinking it’s as easy as 1+1=2. Well, I have bad news for you. It is not.

You personally have chosen your path, long live to you, wish you happy ending in case you live that long to see it happening, and in case there will be any TCs or even Turks living in Cyprus until then. The way you go selling our properties I see only half of you living at the occupied 20 years down the road. Good luck in messing everything up, and killing all prospects for a solution.