Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kartal_Aetos]

ok i dont know who to debate with first....murataga or kifeas....lol

Murataga, I understand your wishes to live under 'your own' administration...and no one is to blame you...i personally dont think the confederation system would work on such a small scale...but my main issue with the problem is that I want peace and unity...I believe if we are constantly looking to divide the people into two communities we will never truely be 'Cypriot'...we will just be the Turkish and Greek inhabitants of the island of Cyprus...

Kifeas, I don't know who's been giving you your information about there only being three incidents of GC's killing TC's before Turkey intervened but that is totally rediculous...BUT, I am not going to debate that with you now...the point I do want to make is that you blame Turkey so much for intervening (or invading as you call it...fair enough) but you fail to see that Turkey intervened/invaded when the junta started carrying out ENOSIS which I believe many GC members of our forum will agree with me, was a compromise on the security of the TC's...also, the junta had in actual fact started killings before Turkey intervened/invaded...they just escalated there actions soon as they had news of the arrival of the Turks...

but anyway, i suggest further research into the matter...

afterall, lets not forget that many of the GC leaders since 1974 have been the ones that spearheaded the Akritas plan

GC/TC government endorsed literature I wouldn't say is the most reliable

[Murataga]

Dear all, it has become apparent today that I will not be able to attend the discussion for a while due to further obligations at my work. I would like to conclude my words by saying that Cypriot Turks want and deserve self administration rights and will always refuse to be solely administered by a Greek or a Greek-dominated government. A substantial and lasting peace settlement can be made only if it is built on this basic principle. Turkish and Greek inhabitants of the island are of different ethnic origin with different language, religion and culture. They can live as neighbours/friends as long as their right to live according to their distinct backgrounds are respected and reflected in their administrations.

Any and all Greeks are welcomed at my table who acknowledges my right to self administration, for I will offer them my Raki and drink their Uzo. Those who give no respect to my right will receive none from me either.

[Kartal_Aetos]

good luck with ur work murataga

but anyway, i say we all just drink the raki/ouzo....screw it....lets drink....lol

[Murataga]

Oh one last thing... Kartal _Aetos, you wrote:

"Kifeas, I don't know who's been giving you your information about there only being three incidents of GC's killing TC's before Turkey intervened but that is totally rediculous...BUT, I am not going to debate that with you now...the point I do want to make is that you blame Turkey so much for intervening (or invading as you call it...fair enough) but you fail to see that Turkey intervened/invaded when the junta started carrying out ENOSIS which I believe many GC members of our forum will agree with me, was a compromise on the security of the TC's...also, the junta had in actual fact started killings before Turkey intervened/invaded...they just escalated there actions soon as they had news of the arrival of the Turks... "

My respects and greetings go out to you ...

[BirKibrisli]

Birkibrisli please make a comparison of the status of TCs pre 1974 and how they are now. When did you last visit the TRNC and see how the average TC lives?

We are making a go of it despite all the disadvantages and we never claim to be perfect but I would much rather live as is with all the imperfections you state than live in a GC state under the administration of people like Piraits and Kifeas who will not as much as look your way once they have gotten what they wanted and that's land.

Did you not notice the reaction of Piratis when he realized what he was demanding was seen as being unreasonable and that he sole aim was to reduce the TC people down to 18% of the island. please show me 1 state in the world where the population % determine the amount of land they administer.

You would do better to direct some of criticism towards the GC arguments as you to have experienced first hand what our negotiators are up against when it come to solving the Cyprus issue, I have personally seen this during the Annan plan and let me tell you the GC side made no friends of the UN or the EU intermediaries.

Viewpoint...I was last in the TRNC in 1999.Things were not very good then,and I believe they are a lot worse now.However,I do not disagree with you that things are better for TC now in some respects (physical security comes to mind) than before 1974.But it has come at a great price. This is the loss of identity and any hope of self determination.And potentially total extinction of Turkish Cypriotness.This is what I revolt against and try to warn others.

I am not suggesting we live Under Piratis' or Kifeas' administration. I think we can live together and share power in a democratic way. You obviously don't trust the GCs and they don't trust TCs.That is why I believe a just solution will only come in stages. That is why I don't think it is possible or desirable to reduce the TC state to 18%.
To give people the chance to live together to learn to trust each other,
we must have a state controlled by the TCs which contains a large minority of GCs,and vice versa. This interim stage cannot be skipped. I hope everyone will get to realise this eventually.

[BirKibrisli]

All of a sudden you seem crystal clear to me... I guess all nationalities have had to deal with your type one time or an other. Given your Turkish identity you try to earn the respect and sympathy of others by insulting your kind

And why would I want to do that,Murataga? What possible payoff I get by insulting my own kind and earning respect of others? I am just like you,I want to be liked by everyone,especially by my own kind.If you have a good explanation,I am happy to listen.

I want everyone in this forum to understand clearly that you are an outliar to Turkish Cypriots (if you should be called one at all) who have no sense of loyalty to people that have gone through years of efforts and suffering to liberate us from Greek slaughter. If it was for your kind Turkey should have sat back and watched its people get slaughtered because it is simply not "popular" to intervene. Do you know what the intervention meant for us when we were brought to the brink extinction and had to live afraid all the time hiding? Or were you out in the forest camping in Australia with Crocodile Dundee?

Tell me which of my comments are lies,Murataga.That there are casinos in the TRNC full of gamblers and prostitutes,and associated "mafia"?
That there are more betting shops in the TRNC per population ratio than anywhere else in the world? That drug trafficking is rife? That there are military zones including Marash where even Talat cannot go without permission? That the real dictator of the TRNC is the Turkish Embassador?That the police force is controlled by the Military and not civilians?
That there are "traffic monsters" on the road driving left-handed cars?
That environment is being slowly ruined by all that building activity on refugee land? That historical and cultural riches of Cyprus are often destroyed because of "Military decisions"?That in recent talks by Abdullah Gul with EU officials regarding Cyprus no TC official was present (that Talat was in Gaziantep in turkey opening some building or other)?
Which of these are lies?
If you want to be eternally grateful to Turkey for "saving you from Greek slaughter" as you put it,and proceeded to enslave you and made you irrelevant bit players in your own country,I cannot help you much. But don't expect me to join you...
I will give you some free advice,Murataga...
You are suffering from various cognitive distortions.
One: All or nothing thinking (you see everthing in black and white)
Two:Overgeneralisation (You see a single positive event as the never-ending pattern of victory)
Three: Mental Filter (You pick out a single negative event -like Murataga massacre- and dwell on it so that your vision of reality becomes distorted)
Four: Magnification (You pick on one sigle event and blow it out of all proportion,making you unable to see reality clearly).
I would get professional help if I were you.

[zan]

Hold on there cowboy. I think the magnification effect is working it’s magic on you too. Apart from Vatican City can you name me anywhere in the world where all of these institutions are not present? Apart from the army that was placed by Attaturk to prevent the system he put in place from being taken over the rest is par for the course. Lift the embargoes and see how quickly we can get rid of the rest. When you lock up people in a pigsty they will live like pigs. Let us out and we can reclaim our dignity. You make it seem as if the GCs and the RoC are our only chance for freedom and a future. I am telling you that we are man enough to make it on our own. We do not need baby sitters. Turkey has spent billions keeping us alive when it could have taken us over years ago, long before any aspirations for the EU, why didn’t she. Life is sometimes hard under the army but it would be harder under a government that we don’t trust and does not trust us. As for seeing everything in black and white, the colour version seems to be to blood covered for us to even look at. We caused the Cyprus problem and left it in such a way that we have wound up with embargoes on our selves. Black and white or multi coloured vomit. The black market, the Mafia and everything else or starvation and then surrender are these the colours that we are supposed to be attracted to.

[BirKibrisli]

Murtaga,

Birkibrisli is a Cypriot ultranationalist, and he would do anything in his power to discredit the TRNC .

I am a proud,sensible,right-thinking Cypriot nationalist,bg_turk.
I believe that Cypriots are the same people divided by language and religion,two manmade and artifical factors. I believe TCs are biologically,culturally,traditionally,historically closer to GCs than Turks from the mainland. I believe TCs should put Cyprus' interests ahead of Turkish interests.I believe the status quo is pushing TCs towards total assimilation with Turkey and loss of their uniqueness as people of Cyprus.
I believe we can live with GCs in a democratic european state in which human rights are respected,without losing the ethnic part of our identity.
What is so untranationalist about that?

[BirKibrisli]

Hold on there cowboy. I think the magnification effect is working it’s magic on you too. Apart from Vatican City can you name me anywhere in the world where all of these institutions are not present? Apart from the army that was placed by Attaturk to prevent the system he put in place from being taken over the rest is par for the course. Lift the embargoes and see how quickly we can get rid of the rest. When you lock up people in a pigsty they will live like pigs. Let us out and we can reclaim our dignity. You make it seem as if the GCs and the RoC are our only chance for freedom and a future. I am telling you that we are man enough to make it on our own. We do not need baby sitters. Turkey has spent billions keeping us alive when it could have taken us over years ago, long before any aspirations for the EU, why didn’t she. Life is sometimes hard under the army but it would be harder under a government that we don’t trust and does not trust us. As for seeing everything in black and white, the colour version seems to be to blood covered for us to even look at. We caused the Cyprus problem and left it in such a way that we have wound up with embargoes on our selves. Black and white or multi coloured vomit. The black market, the Mafia and everything else or starvation and then surrender are these the colours that we are supposed to be attracted to.

I never said I was perfect,Zan...just almost perfect...
You are right that most of those vices present everywhere,including the Vatican City
But in other countries there are so much more positives that you can get away from their actual and moral corruptive influences.In the TRNC you can't. And you are right about "pigs in the stye". And don't think I don't know the GC role in keeping us where we are in that stye. I just don't like stating the obvious.Not while there are so many others doing it.
I agree we are man enough to make it on our own,but I don't think Turkey will leave us alone to do it. I think we are man enough to do it together with the GCs.Provided that we establish the trust and respect necessary before hand.
Your talk about "starvation" and "surrender" or living with the negatives smell suspiciously as if you too are under the magic spell of "all or nothing thinking" and "overgenaralisation"...

[Kifeas]

Kifeas, I don't know who's been giving you your information about there only being three incidents of GC's killing TC's before Turkey intervened but that is totally rediculous...BUT, I am not going to debate that with you now...

Where did I say the above? I only said that before 1974 (before the starting of the Turkish invasion on 20/07/1974) and outside (apart from) the 8 month period of intercommunal conflict, from Dec. 1963 until Aug. 1964, there was only the event of Kofinou, in November 1967, during which innocent TCs have been killed. From Nov. 1967 and on, until after the TC invasion, there were no intercommunal incidents and /or deaths of TCs by GCs or vice versa, the roadblocks outside the TC enclaves have been removed and the TCs could move freely out of them, (there was no blockades,) and there were also on going negotiations between the two sides (Denktash and Klerides) for a political solution of the 1963/64 constitutional crisis and the re-integration of the TC community back into the RoC. I said /say the above in contravention to the claims of Murataga and many others in the forum, who falsely and melodramatically claim that the entire 11 year period before Turkey's invasion in 1974, was a period marked by constant and continues violence, harassment, suppression, etc, etc, against the TCs by the GCs, and that even in 1974 -when Turkey invaded, the GCs were in the act of killing, harassing or suppressing the TC community. If you have any evidence contradicting the above, then just provide it here!

the point I do want to make is that you blame Turkey so much for intervening (or invading as you call it...fair enough) but you fail to see that Turkey intervened/invaded when the junta started carrying out ENOSIS which I believe many GC members of our forum will agree with me, was a compromise on the security of the TC's

What do you mean the junta started "carrying out" enosis? Did the junta tie Cyprus on some mega-ships and started towing it closer towards Greece, so that it could join it together with its mainland part? Enosis was a purely political action which without the consent and approval of the international community, the guarantor powers in the 1960 agreements, and the approval and recognition of it by the UN, it is completely meaningless as a political outcome. The coup to overthrow Makarios was ordered by Junta, but it was in fact carried out by the GC National Guard. Greece did not send troops which landed in Cyprus and had occupied it, in the sense that Turkey did with its invasion. The act of overthrowing Makarios was immediately condemned by the International community, which asked for the re-instatement of the legitimate government of Makarios back into power, and that it did not recognise any possible political fait accompli as a result of the coup. Greece was condemned too, and before the issue begun to be debated into the UN SC, in which sanctions against the coupists and the Junta were going to be authorised, Turkey begun invading without the approval of the UN SC and in violation of the UN Charter, and begun killing and ethnically cleansing the GCs from the north part of Cyprus.

...also, the junta had in actual fact started killings before Turkey intervened/invaded...they just escalated there actions soon as they had news of the arrival of the Turks...

Absolutely not! The coupists (or Junta) did not attack, killed or harmed even one single Turkish Cypriot, during the 5 day period in which the coup took place, before the beginning of the Turkish invasion on the 20/07/1974. The only fighting and or killings took place between GC Makarios supporters and his personal guard on one side, and NG forces on the other side. In fact, Denktash had announced on BRT radio that the event and the fighting was an internal GC affair of the GC community, and it had nothing to do with them, and that the TC fighters around Cyprus should not get involved in any way or manner.

but anyway, i suggest further research into the matter...

Yes indeed! I too suggest .... further reading.

afterall, lets not forget that many of the GC leaders since 1974 have been the ones that spearheaded the Akritas plan

What do you mean by that, and what relation does it have with what we have been talking about?