Cyprus-Forum.com

[Murataga]

Birkibrisli, mark my words carefully:

All of a sudden you seem crystal clear to me... I guess all nationalities have had to deal with your type one time or an other. Given your Turkish identity you try to earn the respect and sympathy of others by insulting your kind. I want everyone in this forum to understand clearly that you are an outliar to Turkish Cypriots (if you should be called one at all) who have no sense of loyalty to people that have gone through years of efforts and suffering to liberate us from Greek slaughter. If it was for your kind Turkey should have sat back and watched its people get slaughtered because it is simply not "popular" to intervene. Do you know what the intervention meant for us when we were brought to the brink extinction and had to live afraid all the time hiding? Or were you out in the forest camping in Australia with Crocodile Dundee?

You are at least as distant from the realities in TRNC as you live away from the island. Neither the Turkish Ambassador or the Turkish Military is not dictating anything to any of us. President Talat can visit where ever he wants whenever he wants and fully enjoys the privelages of a democratically elected leader. For God`s sake, please STOP LYING! I only wished that you did not inflict your diverted sense of realities to others as a Turkish Cypriot. Come and live in TRNC and see for yourself if even Australia grants such democracy and sense of freedom to its people. The reality is: if Turkey wanted the island to herself she would simply have taken it, period. Greeks know this and the Turks know this, perhaps it is about time that you realize it aswell. They would not bother with its 38%, they would not bother with TRNC; wake up and smell the coffee. Turkish Cypriotness can be embraced only free from the rule of the Greeks. You live in an eutopia thinking that all will be well once Turkish Cypriots give in to the rule of the Greek side. We have done it in 1960, look where it got us.

I want all in this forum to know that I fully disassociate my self from your opinions and strongly discredit the false accusations you make about the TRNC which obviously you know very little about.

[bg_turk]

Murtaga,

Birkibrisli is a Cypriot ultranationalist, and he would do anything in his power to discredit the TRNC .

[zan]

The argument of Papadopoulos “Marash should be returned to its original owners” unfortunately is being mentioned not only by the Finish proposals but also by the pro-submission Left groups within our own people. As a matter of fact the other day the General Secretary of the Teacher’s Federation, Senel Elcil, during his meeting with the Prime Minister Mr. Soyer, had demanded the Marash should be given back to its legal owners. What Mr. Senel Elcil had narrated was that in order to strengthen the Turkish government, since the area had been closed and since there was no benefit to the Turkish Cypriots, as a good-will gesture, Marash should be given to its legal owners prior to the 18 December EU meetings.

WHO ARE THE LEGAL OWNERS OF MARASH?

Some how no one remembers asking this question!

In fact this issue a few months ago repeatedly was brought to the attention of the public. The real owner of Marash is Efkaf and it was proven by documents after documents how the Efkaf properties were usurped by conspiracy partnership of Greeks and British authorities.

On Foundation properties there could be no prescription ruling (ZAMAN ASIMI).

In those documents it was pointed out, for example, how a property belonged to Abdullah Pasha Foundation was confiscated under prescription ruling and how the church of AYIOS LOUCAS was built on it.

On the other hand, according to the Foundation rules in Cyprus or elsewhere in the world the prescription ruling could not be applied to the Foundation properties and deed title could not be transferred on to others. About 7 000 of those illegally transferred deed titles are in possession of Efkaf and if we should include the others island wide, this total could well be over 15 000. In closed off section of Marash there are 90 thousands donum of land properties belonged to Abdullah Pasha, Lala Mustafa Pasha and Bilal Aga Foundations respectively. Therefore those who are talking about the legal ownership of the Marash district should exercise utmost diligence, because 90% of Marash district belongs to Efkaf.

In lieu of above, relinquishing the control of Marash to UN, EU or Greek Cypriots as a gesture would blatantly be the violation of legal order and ownership rights. Already the Efkaf administration, in court cases started, in Gazi Magusa and Lefkosa courts has determination decisions. There are other law suits already started in the South. First and foremost thing that should be done would be the return of the Efkaf properties to Efkaf as soon as possible. Returning the Greek properties back to Greek Cypriots should not be acceptable as long as the return of Efkaf properties receive no consideration.

The European Human Rights Court’s verdict in Loizidou case was based on the principle of “The properties should be returned to their original owners without being subjected to the prescription ruling” as it stated in the Annan Plan also, therefore the deed title issued outside of these principles should be considered void.

This action will enable Efkaf to reclaim its long lost properties therefore opportunity as such should not be left to slip away once again.

Please take note, according to the verdict on the Loizidou case and Annan Plan alike, the transfer of deed titles belonged to foundations are not valid. Since the transfer of deed titles on properties belonged to TRNC is considered invalid, the disposition of the properties belonged to Efkaf (TRNC) during the British reign should be considered as invalid too.

European Human Rights and the UN, have no right to give us orders, nor do they have the right to make decisions on the property issues. Therefore they can not say “The deed titles issued by TRNC on the old Greek properties are not valid” or “only the deed titles that were issued by the Greek administration and British government are the valid ones.”

Without wasting anymore time the Efkaf administration has to make the decision to reclaim the old and long lost properties of Efkaf from TRNC government and the Greek administration by taking them to European Human Courts.

[Kifeas]

Birkibrisli, mark my words carefully:

All of a sudden you seem crystal clear to me... I guess all nationalities have had to deal with your type one time or an other. Given your Turkish identity you try to earn the respect and sympathy of others by insulting your kind. I want everyone in this forum to understand clearly that you are an outliar to Turkish Cypriots (if you should be called one at all) who have no sense of loyalty to people that have gone through years of efforts and suffering to liberate us from Greek slaughter. If it was for your kind Turkey should have sat back and watched its people get slaughtered because it is simply not "popular" to intervene. Do you know what the intervention meant for us when we were brought to the brink extinction and had to live afraid all the time hiding? Or were you out in the forest camping in Australia with Crocodile Dundee?

Murataga, you are definitely a youngster that was born after 1974, otherwise you wouldn't have had such a distorted idea about the past, an idea you have most likely obtained reading the nationalist press and publications of the Turkish pro-partition propaganda. I have read your few posts in the forum, and I must suggest you to do some more objective reading and researching concerning the issues you are talking about, because you definitely sound like a brainwashed fanatic that has no touch with the realities of the past.

You have chosen a forum nickname after a village in which a number of innocent TCs have regrettably been murdered by GC chauvinists on the 15th of August 1974, forgetting that the Turkish invasion had started 1 month earlier (20th of July 74,) and by that time a 10 times bigger number of innocent GC civilians had already been murdered by the Turkish Army, under similar circumstances like those in Murataga.

You seem to be of the illusion that the TCs had being chased up and killed constantly during the entire 10 years before 1974, and that in 1974 Turkey invaded at the time the GCs were in the act of killing TCs, none of which corresponds with the realities and the facts. The truth is that apart from an 8 month period in which intercommunal violence took place, during the last week of December 1963 and until August 1964, and an isolated event in Kofinou in November 1967 -in all of which some 750-800 TCs and some 400 GCs were killed or went missing; no other incident involving the murder of TCs occurred, and only until after the beginning of the Turkish invasion on the 20th of July 1974. Since the above Kofinou event in 1967, and until the 20/07/1974, absolutely no TC had been killed by a GC bullet. The 1974 coup by the GC National Guard, inspired by the Greek Junta against Makarios, did not involve any attacks or murders of TCs, and when Turkey invaded 5 days afterwards, it did not invade at a time the GCs were aiming at, attacking or killing TCs, as you seem to wrongfully believe. The only attacks against TCs occurred after the invasion of Turkey, when the TC militia inside and outside the enclaves was collaborating with and facilitating the Turkish landings and other operations.

Yes, mass murders of innocent TCs did occur in 1974, but mainly only after Turkey’s second invasion that started on the 14th of August 1974, which were all revenge attacks against TCs by GC irregulars that went insane after all that had happened until that time and since the beginning of the Turkish invasion. I repeat again that by that time, several hundreds of GCs had already been cold blood murdered by Turkish troops and the collaborating TC militia (Karavas, Ayios Georgios, Kyrenia, Lapithos, Palekythro, Ashia, etc.)

[Murataga]

Kifeas, at least it is nice to see a person who writes as he has read what I have written; for that I thank you. I will write an elaborate answer to you however I am engaged with obligations at work that will keep me from doing so in the immediate future.

However, could not help but to follow-up on your statement with a quick question:

You did not refrain yourself from calling me a "brainwashed fanatic" despite the care and courtesy I have extended to all Greeks by avoiding such unneccessary outbursts in my messages. I can`t help but wonder: If I am a "brainwashed fanatic" because I seek to live independently and refuse to be ruled by the Greeks or a government dominated by them, what does that make you for wanting to force the Turks to go under your rule ? When has wanting to live freely under my own adminstration with my own people become something to be cursed at ?

[Kifeas]

Kifeas, at least it is nice to see a person who writes as he has read what I have written; for that I thank you. I will write an elaborate answer to you however I am engaged with obligations at work that will keep me from doing so in the immediate future.

However, could not help but to follow-up on your statement with a quick question:

You did not refrain yourself from calling me a "brainwashed fanatic" despite the care and courtesy I have extended to all Greeks by avoiding such unneccessary outbursts in my messages. I can`t help but wonder: If I am a "brainwashed fanatic" because I seek to live independently and refuse to be ruled by the Greeks or a government dominated by them, what does that make you for wanting to force the Turks to go under your rule ? When has wanting to live freely under my own adminstration with my own people become something to be cursed at ?

Murataga, you just talk nonsense! Who said to you that because in your pretentious idea, you will be “ruled” by the Greeks, you have the right to steal other people’s land and homes and usurp them, and that you have the right to ethnically cleanse the same people from the place of their ancestry and birth, so that you run your own separate state? Where did you find such a “right?” This country’s, this island’s indigenous people, is composed by GCs as well as TCs and others, which all have the right to exist in this place, in the whole of it, and to have all their equal human, cultural and democratic political rights fully respected. If you do not like the way it naturally exists, if you do not like one or more of the cultural groups that naturally and legitimately exist in it, you can always move away from it; but you have no right to deprive anyone of his right to exist in his country so that you live alone in an “ethnically purified” territory.

Furthermore, what do you mean you refuse to be ruled by the Greeks? Who said to you that you will be ruled by the Greeks? In which way? In what sense? Who said to you that the Greeks want to rule you? Cyprus is not the only place or country on earth that its people is constituted by more than one “sub-ethnic” (sub-national) group, and in no one of all these other (properly democratic) countries the people claim that one "sub-ethnic" group is ruled by another. I cannot help but tell you again that you just talk nonsense!

[Murataga]

You say: "...Cyprus is not the only place or country on earth that its people is constituted by more than one “sub-ethnic” (sub-national) group..."

True but given the assumption that "all" of those groups want to live together. As part of its legal inhabitants we simply do not in Cyprus with Greeks! Because we want to see them as our neighbours, and not as the dominant administrative power in a government administering us. You well know what such enforcement has lead the island to in the past. What has changed for us to believe that the unpleasant past of Cyprus will not repeat itself under its Greek dominated government? We are prepared to give what it takes for our freedom in Cyprus. This is our position. Nothing more nothing less.

[Murataga]

A small addition: we can also live together if we are granted self administration rights under a loose confederation. Than all pre-1974 Greek inhabitants of the North are welcomed back. Simply let us rule ourselves ...

[Kifeas]

A small addition: we can also live together if we are granted self administration rights under a loose confederation. Than all pre-1974 Greek inhabitants of the North are welcomed back. Simply let us rule ourselves ...

Therefore you are suggesting that your community voted "yes" to the Annan plan because it provided for a loose confederation, and that your leader Talat is also striving for a loose confederation, as the ultimate solution. Isn’t it so?

[Murataga]

Unfortunately I do not know the full details of the Annan Plan and the precise political stand of Talat enough to give my consent.

I am advocating for the principal of our self administration rights as Turkish Cypriots, that is all. Certainly a loose confederative system may serve this purpose once an agreement is reached on the technical details amongst the experts from both sides. I think a peacefull and sustainable solution can be reached (that includes welcoming Greeks to the North and the reduction of Turkish military presence, which I sense are the two most critical aspects for the Greek side) once the Turkish Cypriots` right for self administration is respected and granted.