Cyprus-Forum.com

[BirKibrisli]

Sorry,Viewpoint...Just read the whole thread now.

As people who read the original thread Piratis quoted in his first post will see, our little exercise broke down pretty quickly.To be fair to Viewpoint he did come down 8% to 29% with more possible concessions later,but Piratis wasn't inclined to add 8% to his 18% to come to 26%. My next step would've been to ask Viewpoint to accept 25% in the spirit of peace and cooperation. But we never got that far. While I accept Piratis' right not to bargain,I just cannot see how we will ever get anywhere if we refuse to bargain (which is called negotiating in diplomatic language )...

Look...The most important elements missing in Cyprus is trust and understanding and respect. If we are to achieve our ultimate aim (A united fully democratic Cyprus) we must work very hard to install the missing elements. The only way to realistically doing that is for the two communities to live together for some time,so that we can all see what would happen in practice. Nothing else will really do.The only way we will do that is if we have two states each controlled by one ethnic community,containing significant numbers of the other community.After our bloody history,the best guarantee for security say the GCs who live in the TC controled area would be the TCs who live in the GC controlled area. I am sure you know what I am getting at...

Now...If we have all the TCs and some of the settlers squeezed into 18% of land,my bet is that not too many (if any) GCs would want to go and live there. And because not many GCs live in the TC controlled area,not many TC will return to the South. So we will NEVER achieve the numbers living comfortably on both sides to allow for understanding and trust and respect to develop. Hence what we will have is ...you guessed it PARTITION. What will happen to our common aim of A United Cyprus then? ??

[DT.]

Sorry,Viewpoint...Just read the whole thread now.

As people who read the original thread Piratis quoted in his first post will see, our little exercise broke down pretty quickly.To be fair to Viewpoint he did come down 8% to 29% with more possible concessions later,but Piratis wasn't inclined to add 8% to his 18% to come to 26%. My next step would've been to ask Viewpoint to accept 25% in the spirit of peace and cooperation. But we never got that far. While I accept Piratis' right not to bargain,I just cannot see how we will ever get anywhere if we refuse to bargain (which is called negotiating in diplomatic language )...

Look...The most important elements missing in Cyprus is trust and understanding and respect. If we are to achieve our ultimate aim (A united fully democratic Cyprus) we must work very hard to install the missing elements. The only way to realistically doing that is for the two communities to live together for some time,so that we can all see what would happen in practice. Nothing else will really do.The only way we will do that is if we have two states each controlled by one ethnic community,containing significant numbers of the other community.After our bloody history,the best guarantee for security say the GCs who live in the TC controled area would be the TCs who live in the GC controlled area. I am sure you know what I am getting at...

Now...If we have all the TCs and some of the settlers squeezed into 18% of land,my bet is that not too many (if any) GCs would want to go and live there. And because not many GCs live in the TC controlled area,not many TC will return to the South. So we will NEVER achieve the numbers living comfortably on both sides to allow for understanding and trust and respect to develop. Hence what we will have is ...you guessed it PARTITION. What will happen to our common aim of A United Cyprus then? ??

Bir with all due respect your claim that piratis will not bargain is false.

The problem is the starting point of the two communties. If we are starting from fair then it would 18-82. Thats what our population percentage is. Now if you are startng from 37% that means that you are using your spoils of war to get something else. As i said before, if the troops stopped at 60% of the island in 74 would we start our negotiation at 60% for 18% of the population?

[Viewpoint]

I agree totally Bir, on the one hand Piratis promotes reunification and democracy and human rights for all Cypriots but in reality this can only be achieved on his terms, this reflects exactly what I have been saying all along people like Piratis want to force us into 18% and then apply restrictions that will push us into a GC dominated state. I am pretty certain that if we ever proceeded to discussing the political balance he would apply the same principles that its OK for the TCs to live in a GC state administered by GCs but when the same thing he promotes and bands about likes it going out of fashion is applied in reverse he totally rejects it. How can you negotiate anything with a person with this mentality and not question his motives on every issue which in itself blocks the path of progress as we experienced in your exercise.

[DT.]

I'll say it again:

do you want to start a negotiation from a point that is fair for both sides? Or do you want to build on what you gained through the war and the invasion?

If its the 2nd one then why are we even talking about it?

[Viewpoint]

I'll say it again:

do you want to start a negotiation from a point that is fair for both sides? Or do you want to build on what you gained through the war and the invasion?

If its the 2nd one then why are we even talking about it?

Where do you suggest we start from?, when its exactly those issue we are trying to solve.

[Piratis]

Has usual you are blowing things out of all portion, what have you accepted so far?

I accepted the BBF the way you asked for it, as long as the states are 18%-82%. So basically I accepted everything you asked for with just 1 fair condition!!!!!!!!

If you think I am asking for too much for asking that one thing (!!!) lets reverse it: We have the BBF the way I understand it, the power sharing they way I think is correct, the security issues dealt the way I believe is right etc, and in return you get one thing, the land distribution with 29% that you want. Would you accept that?

Because the truth is, that you want everything your way. I have been extremely compromising here and you not at all.

For demanding a separate state you expressed security reasons.
For demanding the power sharing the way you demand it, you state the "evil GCs who want to dominate us" excuse.
For the Settlers you state "humane" reasons.

So you have some excuse for demanding things.

Believe me, we have 100 reasons to demand things that are in direct conflict with the things you demand. And not lame excuses like what most of yours are, but real reasons, such as our basic human and democratic rights.

Still I decided this one time as a favor to Birkıbrısli since he asked me to, to be super compromising even if I knew that with people like you it would mean nothing.

So the only thing I demanded was something that would not be in conflict with what you demanded. How would it be different for your security, of the power sharing, or any of your other concerns and "concerns" if the TC state is not 29% but the more fair 18%??

Still, you rejected it, and we all know why.

In any case this was a good exercise and it proves how right experienced politicians like Papadopoulos are. They know that negotiating with people like you nothing is useless since all you care is how you will gain on our loss.

Therefore since you did not accept that one thing I asked for, I also reject all your demands as well. We reject Turkey from EU. We reject an end to your "isolation", and we will make sure you will face as much consequences for your insistence on illegalities as possible, until the day that the balance of power will change and we will be able to liberate our country.

[BirKibrisli]

Bir with all due respect your claim that piratis will not bargain is false.

The problem is the starting point of the two communties. If we are starting from fair then it would 18-82. Thats what our population percentage is. Now if you are startng from 37% that means that you are using your spoils of war to get something else. As i said before, if the troops stopped at 60% of the island in 74 would we start our negotiation at 60% for 18% of the population?

DT...
No point in arguing about whether Piratis will bargain or not,if people are interested they can go to the original thread and make up their own minds.

You have not commented on my arguments that we need two viable states where people can live together to help bring about trust and respect etc.Please remember that this was an interim stage,and not the final solution. I know it doesn't seem fair to you to start from 37%,but that is the reality as we speak. And had the Turkish troops captured 60% or 100% of the island,that would've been the reality we'd have to start with.I agree it is not fair,and it is cruel,and it is the rule of the jungle,but that is war. It was not fair that all those people had to die,that hundreds of thousands became refugees,that hundreds of thousands more had/have to live with post traumatic stress disorders...but that is how it is.

And if we want to make the best of it,to achieve the fairest result in the long term,which is one united democratic Cyprus which we have agreed on,we need to take it in interim steps.You and Piratis suspect Viewpoint's motivations in wanting to start with 29%,and he suspects your motivation in wanting to start from 18-82 %. This proves my point that the most important element in a united Cyprus,trust does not exist.If I know Viewpoint,he'll never trust that GC motivation is anything but to push all the TCs into 18% of the island and call that the permanent solution,or Partition if you like. How are you going to convince him your intentions are otherwise?

[BirKibrisli]

If you think I am asking for too much for asking that one thing (!!!) lets reverse it: We have the BBF the way I understand it, the power sharing they way I think is correct, the security issues dealt the way I believe is right etc, and in return you get one thing, the land distribution with 29% that you want. Would you accept that?

Piratis,if you are upto another exercise,I'd love to know very briefly the way you understand the BBF,the power sharing,and the security issues etc...Feel free to tell me to piss off,as it is 2.09 am Wednesday here,and I'd love to go to sleep...

[Viewpoint]

Bir no one is taking into account the return of GCs (ROR) into the north state, lets say there are 1,000,000
population 180,000 TCs and 820,000 GCs as our friends suggest, then a swing of 50,000 to 100,000+ GCs exercising their ROR to the north will support a north state of between 23% to 28%, surely this not being unrealistic.

[Piratis]

To be fair to Viewpoint he did come down 8% to 29% with more possible concessions later,but Piratis wasn't inclined to add 8% to his 18% to come to 26%. My next step would've been to ask Viewpoint to accept 25% in the spirit of peace and cooperation. But we never got that far. While I accept Piratis' right not to bargain,I just cannot see how we will ever get anywhere if we refuse to bargain (which is called negotiating in diplomatic language Wink )...

So in your bargain game, the one who asks for the most, gets the most. Thanks, I should know it so from now on I will just ask for extreme outrageous things like Viewpoint does, so later I will be able to compromise. I guess trying to be sensible doesn't fit in this game. So then I should have said that the TC state should be 2% so I could later "compromise". Thats how this game is played?

Now...If we have all the TCs and some of the settlers squeezed into 18% of land,my bet is that not too many (if any) GCs would want to go and live there. And because not many GCs live in the TC controlled area,not many TC will return to the South. So we will NEVER achieve the numbers living comfortably on both sides to allow for understanding and trust and respect to develop. Hence what we will have is ...you guessed it PARTITION. What will happen to our common aim of A United Cyprus then? ??

When the 82% of the population is living on the 63% of land for the last 32 years they are not "squeezed" and when the 18% of the population will live in the 18% of land they will be squeezed?
Furthermore nobody said that all TCs should live in the north state. I have absolutely no problem with TCs living anywhere in Cyprus that they want.