Cyprus-Forum.com

[Natty]

And we don't know if the junta in Greece would've fallen without the Turkish intervasion (your work,I like it ).

Hi Birkibrisli, I can understand what your saying, but the Greek Junta fell after the first Turkish intervension, so why was there the need to come back and take 37% of the Island?

Now if you ask me what would've happened had there been no coup against Makarios,I'd say that there would be very little TC presence in Cyprus by now.

That's an interesting thought, but why do you feel that way though Birkibrisli?

Just as a matter of interest, what do you think would have happened if Turkey had not intervened? Would Cyprus have been a haven for ALL Cypriots to this day? My Brother in-laws sister nearly died of starvation and disease in one of the enclaves. Dr. Kucuk was not sure that she would live, that is how bad she was. One off maybe/....depends which end of the magnifier you are looking from.

Hi Zan, did this occur after 1967 because as far as I know the Greek blockades had been lifted by then, although I could be wrong...

Peace!

[BirKibrisli]

Birkıbrıslı if you can get your hands on the report prepared by the World Bank you will see some real figures about the TRNC and not just hearsay. We are no worse off than many new EU members and much better than others, Latvia, Poland and Slovak Rep have lower GNI per capita than us is just one example and they are not under any sort of isolation. So what gets me is that you so easily criticise TCs who are doing the best they can under the prevailing circumstances and do not speak out against GC acts of continuing the isolation to force us back to 1960 agreements which they themselves openly admit to not wanting and will oppose at the first opportunity once they have snared the TCs community into think that that is the only way forward.

I am aware of the World Bank report ,Viewpoint.
Those statistics are not relevant to what I am talking about.I am talking about the state of morality,rule of the law,and the ever diminishing self-determination rights and political will of the TCs. But I won't harp on it.
We'll have to agree to disagree about the biggest danger facing the TCs.You think it is the GCs,I think it is the status quo,and the step by step extinction of the TC identity in Cyprus.

I do not criticise the GC administration (as you like to call them )because they are acting in the best interest of their people,the GCs.
Because Turkey and TCs led by Denktash have turned a perfectly legal intervention to restore the independence of the Republic of Cyprus,into an illegal occupation,and proceeded to use the fear and gratitude of the TCs to strip them of their cultural identity and political power.

I know you think we are better off with Partition,but I see that as the death warrant of TC identity. I lived in Cyprus during the 50s and 60s,hence I know why you think the way you do.I don't really blame you.
But I expect you to see that the internationally recognised Republic of Cyprus is in a bitter struggle with Turkey to recover as much of her land as possible. Why should they be nice to the TCs who (for rightly or wrongly) have sided with "the enemy"?

But what I will criticise the GCs and the Cyprus government is for not being realistic enough to see that their tactics will not work,not in a million years.
Unless they wake up and accept that we must put the past behind us,that there is only more pain and suffering in prolonging the agony,with much more to come if (God forbid) they ever decide to force a solution militarily.That will be a disaster for the whole of Cyprus.That could be the beginning of the end of the Cypriot nation,not only the TC component...

[BirKibrisli]

And we don't know if the junta in Greece would've fallen without the Turkish intervasion (your work,I like it ).

Hi Birkibrisli, I can understand what your saying, but the Greek Junta fell after the first Turkish intervension, so why was there the need to come back and take 37% of the Island?

Now if you ask me what would've happened had there been no coup against Makarios,I'd say that there would be very little TC presence in Cyprus by now.

That's an interesting thought, but why do you feel that way though Birkibrisli?

Just as a matter of interest, what do you think would have happened if Turkey had not intervened? Would Cyprus have been a haven for ALL Cypriots to this day? My Brother in-laws sister nearly died of starvation and disease in one of the enclaves. Dr. Kucuk was not sure that she would live, that is how bad she was. One off maybe/....depends which end of the magnifier you are looking from.

Hi Zan, did this occur after 1967 because as far as I know the Greek blockades had been lifted by then, although I could be wrong...

Peace!

Ecevit originally invited England to come and have a joint intervention as co-guarantors of Cyprus's independence. When they refused he decided to do it by himself. After the first action the army was not happy with their situation militarily. They were in too tight a space to defend their positions.
I believe there were further efforts by Ecevit to bring all parties to negotiations. When that too failed the Army just took over and completed drawing the Attila Line, one of the pre planned alternative actions.
Former president Kenan Evren is on record for saying that they took Varosha by mistake,but they might as well use it as a bargaining tool.Which is what is happening now sort of...

As to why I think the TCs would become extinct under Makarios...
because their economic,social and political position were untenable.They had no future in Cyprus,so they would be forced to emmigrate. Makarios knew that,and I'd say was subtlely encouraging the TCs to leave Cyprus.
Makarious was a brilliant politician and tactician. Too bad he saw no place in Cyprus for the TCs...

[Kifeas]

As to why I think the TCs would become extinct under Makarios...
because their economic,social and political position were untenable.They had no future in Cyprus,so they would be forced to emmigrate. Makarios knew that,and I'd say was subtlely encouraging the TCs to leave Cyprus.
Makarious was a brilliant politician and tactician. Too bad he saw no place in Cyprus for the TCs...

No Birk, this is a misconception. Perhaps there was such a policy of “encouraging” the TCs to emigrate from Cyprus for a short period of time, 1964-1967, but this was not the case afterwards.

Makarios, since the end of 1967 (Kofinou events and withdrawal of the Greek division that secretly arrived in Cyprus) had consciously given up Enosis as a political objective, despite some scattered public comments to the opposite –mainly to trick the nationalist front in Cyprus, and proceeded for negotiations with the TC community (Denktash –Klerides) for a solution of the constitutional crisis on the basis of independence on a revised constitutional framework, with substantial regional autonomy (police, court judges, town planning, etc) in various TC areas around Cyprus, in exchange for a reduced participation (20% instead of 30% and 40% in the legislature, civil service and police) for the members of the TC community, and a reduction of the president’s and vice president’s veto rights. This is why the Greek Junta and the nationalist front in Cyprus (Grivas and his Eoka B) turned against him and wanted to overthrow and eliminate him. From 1970 and up until 1974, he had escaped almost a dozen of assassination attempts, for turning against enosis and in favor independence on the basis of an agreement with the TC community.

These negotiations, by the end of 1973 had produced results -they were almost completed, and the only issue remaining unresolved was that of repeating in the new set of agreements the already existing closure prohibiting /excluding Enosis and partition. Makarios claimed that since the new agreement was an amendment of the 1960 agreements which indeed prohibited enosis and partition under the existing treaty of guarantee, and since the subject of the treaty of guarantee was not touched in the revised constitutional framework; that it was not necessary to repeat what was already in place. The Turkish side was insisting on this closure, and Makarios kicked the ball to the Greek government (Junta,) and asked the Turkish government (via Denktash) to go and discuss the issue between themselves (Greece and Turkey.) He did not want to take the responsibility of appearing to reject Enosis, due to the known reactionary positions of the Eoka B and the Junta officers in Cyprus, who used to control the NG, fearing that rumors for a coup against him would have materialized due to such a move.

The Greek Junta and its cronies in Cyprus wanted a solution along the lines of the Anglo-American 1964 Acheson plan which Makarios had blown up, and which provided for a large military base for Turkey (Karpasia peninsula) and some regional TC autonomy, in exchange of Union (enosis) of Cyprus with Greece, a solution that Turkey seemed to have also favored then. Makarios had opposed this plan and made it fail, because he saw it as a partition and a double union plan, and instead he had chosen to stick with retaining Cyprus as an independed state without Turkish or Greek bases, that is why he also decided after 1967 to solve the internal political disputes with the Turkish Cypriot community and eventually re-integrate them back into the RoC institutions. This is where the roads of Makarios and the Greek Junta (and its cronies here) departed, and that is why they made it their mission to eliminate him.

[Viewpoint]

Birkibrisli

Those statistics are not relevant to what I am talking about.I am talking about the state of morality,rule of the law,and the ever diminishing self-determination rights and political will of the TCs. But I won't harp on it.

Go to Estonia or Romania and you will see the stark reality that economically and socially the TRNC is not such a bad place as you wish to make out it is. I agree its no Australia but its also not Niger.

We'll have to agree to disagree about the biggest danger facing the TCs. You think it is the GCs, I think it is the status quo,and the step by step extinction of the TC identity in Cyprus.

Either way this will happen its just a matter of choice do you want to return to your roots of being Turkish or do you want to become Greek Cypriot you have obviously made your choice.

I do not criticise the GC administration (as you like to call them )because they are acting in the best interest of their people,the GCs.

and the TRNC are not??? this really reveals where your priorities lay and that's not with us.

Because Turkey and TCs led by Denktash have turned a perfectly legal intervention to restore the independence of the Republic of Cyprus,into an illegal occupation,and proceeded to use the fear and gratitude of the TCs to strip them of their cultural identity and political power.

Or to provide a better tomorrow than continuation of the past. The GC do not want you in any shape way or form your experiences abroad are totally distant from the people who live on the island as they have to share a country there you live according to the rules of the foreign country you accepted to abide as you decided to live there.
The next time you visit the TRNC Ill pick you up in my new Mercedes and take to to my second home a 5 bed villa in Kyrenia, then we can cruise in my yacht and have lunch in Karpaz then you can spend the night in my main residence in Nicosia where we can swim in my heated swimming pool, a step up from the shack we used to live in during 1963-1974 don't you think?

I know you think we are better off with Partition,but I see that as the death warrant of TC identity. I lived in Cyprus during the 50s and 60s,hence I know why you think the way you do.I don't really blame you.

Thank you, yet you still argue that we should jump out of the fat into the fire knowing the dangers involved and how the GC mind works. Tut tut.

But I expect you to see that the internationally recognised Republic of Cyprus is in a bitter struggle with Turkey to recover as much of her land as possible. Why should they be nice to the TCs who (for rightly or wrongly) have sided with "the enemy"?

But that enemy is our big brother, who was only out to protect his own. The GCs do not want to befriend TCs as this would mean having to concede to political equality and land redistribution as you encountered with Piratis they promote and impose that we should not think twice about living in a GC state run by GCs but when you suggest it in reverse they are repulsed at the idea. That's the GC mind you have to contend with on a day in day out basis, this is over the divide just think if we were mixed it would be hell on earth for TCs.

But what I will criticise the GCs and the Cyprus government is for not being realistic enough to see that their tactics will not work,not in a million years.

At last some common sense, their tactics will only serve to alienate us even further.

Unless they wake up and accept that we must put the past behind us,that there is only more pain and suffering in prolonging the agony,with much more to come if (God forbid) they ever decide to force a solution militarily.That will be a disaster for the whole of Cyprus.That could be the beginning of the end of the Cypriot nation,not only the TC component...

That is a bomb if you play with it, it is bound to go off at some stage, the experience of 1974 has taught GCs absolutely nothing.

[raymanuva]

Viewpoint? is that you? Denktashes son?

[Viewpoint]

Viewpoint? is that you? Denktashes son?

You dont have to be a Denktash to see reality, it stares you in the face every day.

[miltiades]

VP WROTE >

"""Either way this will happen its just a matter of choice do you want to return to your roots of being Turkish""".

You now admit that you are not a Cypriot and that you have permanently lost your Cypriot identity.
You talk about returning to your roots how about returning to your country also and leave Cyprus to the rightful owners , us Cypriots.
Very impressed with your worthily possessions isn't a shame that the vast majority of our people in the Turkish occupied part of Cyprus are not as lucky as you are , but may be they are just ordinary Cypriots who do not deserve a new Mercedes , a 5 bedroom villa etc etc.

[zan]

VP WROTE >

"""Either way this will happen its just a matter of choice do you want to return to your roots of being Turkish""".

You now admit that you are not a Cypriot and that you have permanently lost your Cypriot identity.
You talk about returning to your roots how about returning to your country also and leave Cyprus to the rightful owners , us Cypriots.
Very impressed with your worthily possessions isn't a shame that the vast majority of our people in the Turkish occupied part of Cyprus are not as lucky as you are , but may be they are just ordinary Cypriots who do not deserve a new Mercedes , a 5 bedroom villa etc etc.

miltiades

I think VP was joking about his possessions but if he was not he has just become my new best friend.


I have to also inform you that the statement you made is more fuel for the fire. It is because we are told, nay ordered, to lose our Turkish side that makes our blood boil. There is no doubting that we are Turkish and ALSO Cypriot. The amount of Cypriot blood does not really matter but the amount of Turkish blood does. We are Turkish Cypriots and do not want to lose that or our traditions and ties to Turkey our mother land. We see no reason to and see no reason for you to want us to. I live in the UK as a Turkish Cypriot and as a Brit, why should I not be able to do that in my own home. I have had a few people tell me that if I want to live like a Turkish Cypriot (what ever that is) that I should go home and that statement of yours makes me wonder where home really is.

[humanist]

I'm still not hearing anyone talking about unification of all Cypriots.

Come on people we can do better than winge about a past we cannot change ....... but we can shape a better future for our generation and those to follow

Regards
Humanist