Cyprus-Forum.com

[BirKibrisli]

Sorry,Piratis...I wrote the above post withour reading your final last two posts.But try to humour me.Lets do this exercise one step at a time.It won't matter if we don't get there.Lets try.Do you agree that the next stage would have to be a bizonal federation of some sort?

Birkıbrısli I have tried this stage by stage approach with Piratis in the past and we have taken the same steps you intend taking. His blanket negativity and style will thwart your attempt to put the building blocks in place to construct any sort of plan to resolve the Cyprus problem.

He may treat you with kid gloves but he will strangle your attempts to move forward with his narrow vision and lack of understanding to compromise, his whole approach is not a gradual process allowing us time to mature and discover that a united Cyprus is the best way forward for everyone, his sole aim is to reduce the TC into a minority status like the blacks in the USA or the Indians in the UK, what he doesn't realize is that we are more like the Welsh or the Scottish in the UK.

Thanks for the warning,VP.
But lets see if I can get further than you have in the past.
Piratis has promised to erect a 150 meter statue of me if I suceed!

[BirKibrisli]

Thank you,Piratis.
Lets see if we can get Viewpoint to come to the party.
Viewpoint...Can we all agree that the final solution for Cyprus is one united, independent,democratic state where ethnic origins do not matter at all,and where everybody respects each others differences,and equal opportunity reigns supreme???Don't worry about how to get there at this point...Do you agree that would be a very desirable goal?

Zan...feel free to come in too if you are about.

For the sake of this exercise I agree that this should be our ultimate goal.

Good.So we all agree that is the ultimate aim.
Okey Viewpoint...Am I right in assuming that your first priority is to guarantee the physical security of the TCs?So this will require a separate state controled by the TCs. How much land are you prepared to relinquish to the GC state as a compromise,assuming that no GCs will cross to the North at this stage?You can express it in percentage terms if you like...And also can you indicate how many settlers you want to remain in the TRNC at this next stage?Rough numbers will do...

[Viewpoint]

I would stick to the parameters of the Annan plan which allows approx 80/90.000 GCs refugees to return, so this would mean the north state would be reduced initially to 29%.

With regards to the settlers issue I have only a few posts back stated that these settlers issue should be dealt with in a humane way, just saying ship them back to where they came form is not good enough. The EU criteria could be applied, whereby anyone who has resided in the North for more than 5 years should be considered for citizenship of a united Cyprus. These people if they are occupying disputed property should gradually be rehoused or offered the incentive to return to Turkey if they wish.

Are the above demands that unreasonable? or outrageous?

[Piratis]

Are the above demands that unreasonable? or outrageous?

Yes, you can hide the settler issue behind "human reasons" (you don't seem to care about the same reasons when it comes to GCs) but there can be no excuse for you demanding 29% of land.

If TCs will keep 18% of land, most GCs can return under GC administration so there will be no need for 80/90.000 GCs returning under TC admin. Only some 1000s of GCs will need to live under TC admin and an equal number of TCs can live under GC admin.

[BirKibrisli]

I would stick to the parameters of the Annan plan which allows approx 80/90.000 GCs refugees to return, so this would mean the north state would be reduced initially to 29%.

With regards to the settlers issue I have only a few posts back stated that these settlers issue should be dealt with in a humane way, just saying ship them back to where they came form is not good enough. The EU criteria could be applied, whereby anyone who has resided in the North for more than 5 years should be considered for citizenship of a united Cyprus. These people if they are occupying disputed property should gradually be rehoused or offered the incentive to return to Turkey if they wish.

Are the above demands that unreasonable? or outrageous?

It does not matter what I think,Viewpoint,for this exercise.
You think they are reasonable obviously,so they are...
29% of the land initially,which leaves room for more negotiations at the following stage.Fantastic. If we are going by the Annan plan,if I am not wrong that plan allowed some 45,000 settlers to remain. Will you be happy with that? If there are more than that number,some humane way will be found to accomodate those who will have to leave,of course.
So 29% of the land with upto 90,000 GC refugees and upto 45,000 settlers remaining.Happy with that?

[Viewpoint]

Are the above demands that unreasonable? or outrageous?

Yes, you can hide the settler issue behind "human reasons" (you don't seem to care about the same reasons when it comes to GCs) but there can be no excuse for you demanding 29% of land.

If TCs will keep 18% of land, most GCs can return under GC administration so there will be no need for 80/90.000 GCs returning under TC admin. Only some 1000s of GCs will need to live under TC admin and an equal number of TCs can live under GC admin.

Typical Piratis reaction, the 80/90.000 are refugees from the 8% being returned as Bir only asked

How much land are you prepared to relinquish to the GC state as a compromise,assuming that no GCs will cross to the North at this stage?

What do you suggest we do with the settlers? kick them all out? is that the GC administered way of how you intend to deal with them humanely? This only reflects your own heavy handed approach to resolving anything.

Who said I do not want to deal with GC humanely, if you read my posts I said settlers hsould be rehoused, why do you think that is? or offered incentive to go back to Turkey.

Birkıbrısli, I did try to warn you from the outset.

[Viewpoint]

I would stick to the parameters of the Annan plan which allows approx 80/90.000 GCs refugees to return, so this would mean the north state would be reduced initially to 29%.

With regards to the settlers issue I have only a few posts back stated that these settlers issue should be dealt with in a humane way, just saying ship them back to where they came form is not good enough. The EU criteria could be applied, whereby anyone who has resided in the North for more than 5 years should be considered for citizenship of a united Cyprus. These people if they are occupying disputed property should gradually be rehoused or offered the incentive to return to Turkey if they wish.

Are the above demands that unreasonable? or outrageous?

It does not matter what I think,Viewpoint,for this exercise.
You think they are reasonable obviously,so they are...
29% of the land initially,which leaves room for more negotiations at the following stage.Fantastic. If we are going by the Annan plan,if I am not wrong that plan allowed some 45,000 settlers to remain. Will you be happy with that? If there are more than that number,some humane way will be found to accomodate those who will have to leave,of course.
So 29% of the land with upto 90,000 GC refugees and upto 45,000 settlers remaining.Happy with that?

OK with me.

[Piratis]

So 29% of the land with upto 90,000 GC refugees and upto 45,000 settlers remaining.Happy with that?

Viewpoint is happy. They keep 29%, then they apply their "Serbia - Montenegro" model and they have their partition with 29% of land.

We can compromise about the settler issue if TCs accept 18%-82% land distribution.
The north state should be 18%, and all the settlers can stay there and their welfare paid by the TCs.

[BirKibrisli]

Are the above demands that unreasonable? or outrageous?

Yes, you can hide the settler issue behind "human reasons" (you don't seem to care about the same reasons when it comes to GCs) but there can be no excuse for you demanding 29% of land.

If TCs will keep 18% of land, most GCs can return under GC administration so there will be no need for 80/90.000 GCs returning under TC admin. Only some 1000s of GCs will need to live under TC admin and an equal number of TCs can live under GC admin.

Piratis...Lets forget whether VP's demands are reasonable or not.It doesn't really matter.We are not worried about what is right or wrong at this stage but what is "realistic".
VP has come down 8% from 37%,so could you go up 8% from where you are to 26% of the land for the TC state? To my thinking it will be a great plus if as many people as practicable can live in the "other" ethnic dominated state,because given our final aim,we want to expose as many people as possible to living together. How many GCs do you estimate would realistically want to return to a TC control state? Would it be more than 90,000? And how do you feel about 45,000 settlers remaining?

[zan]

Thanks for the invite Bir but I have to do some work in a convent today and swearing under my breath is not going to be an appropriate way to behave in such a place. As a quick reaction though I would say that 37% is just fine. Sorry Bir but I am not into sado masochism.