Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

Viewpoint, so what you are saying is that if the BBF is not applied in the way that you want it that means "GC domination"?

What I want for Cyprus is based on the principles that exist in any other democratic country. I have even asked you in the past to choose ANY system of any other EU country for Cyprus. Or all countries have designing their systems to serve "GC domination". It is you that you insist that Cyprus should have a system that has nothing to do with any system of any democratic country, just because that suits you best and would make you gain on our loss.

In any case we agree. You will face the consequences of your illegal actions until we will have the power to end your illegalities. Lets not waste any more of our time.

[BirKibrisli]

OK! Harry Potter. When you get your magic wand I have a little alteration I would like you to make for me. Look out girls here I come......

Careful you don't attract some guys along the way...

Magic wand or not,Zan,do we agree that ideally Cyprus should become One United Democratic Country where nobody gives a fcuk about anyone's ethnic origin,people live in a civilised manner,celebrating their differences instead of using them as motivation for division and hatred?

The question should be How to get there from where we are?
We have agreed with Piratis that it won't happen in one big step.
And I believe it is not realistic to expect to be able to agree on a formula now,come up with plans for all necessary interm stages,and sign a pre-agreement to take us there.So we need to take one step at a time,and see what happens before we take another step.This will involve some trust,as it should,because without that nothing can be achieved.
Now can you tell me what are the 3 most important considerations for you,to take us from where we are to the next stage???(Next stage being a part-solution which will get things on the way.)

[Piratis]

Magic wand or not,Zan,do we agree that ideally Cyprus should become One United Democratic Country where nobody gives a fcuk about anyone's ethnic origin,people live in a civilised manner,celebrating their differences instead of using them as motivation for division and hatred?

The question should be How to get there from where we are?

Birkibrisli, be very careful my friend. If you say a bit more of that they will accuse you that you are Piratis

I always say exactly what you said above.

Here is a thread I started on May 9th of this year:

About the "how" we will get there is something we obviously can not agree. Some said for example that we should have accepted the Annan plan and then try to change it to something more acceptable - workable. Since this came from one of the most zealous Annan plan supporters I assume that not even them considered this plan as the final solution.

So if we forget the how we will get there, can we agree on where we want to finally get? Actually I believe that the right order is deciding where you are going before you decide how you will get there.

So, can we at least agree on what should be the final solution?

For me this should be the final destination that will permanently solve the Cyprus problem:

One united Cyprus without any kind of borders and restrictions, were all citizens are equal regardless of their race/language/religion/ethnic background etc, were human rights are fully respected and the differences between the people are not used as an excuse for conflict and discrimination, but are supported equally by the state to help enrich our island as a meting pot of different people that can live together in peace, in the crossroads of the 3 continents.

When we achieve this I am sure that Cypriots will finally manage to take advantage of the great location of their country for themselves, and make Cyprus a center for the arts, education, technology and trade. Cyprus could even be the ideal place for the relocation of UN!

Now the above is the ideal. Its a dream. But you have to admit that it is a much better dream than the ones that drove us to separation and disasters.

Of course I am not expecting this to happen overnight. It will take many years, possibly several decades. However if we manage to agree on the final aim, then the how we will get there will be simplified. The solution can include several steps and transitional periods which will gradually bring us the desired result. Many of us might not even live to see the end result and we might have to make sacrifices. However we would know that we did what was right for our children and the future generations of the finally united Cypriots. (and not just united Cyprus)
http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=5865

Unfortunately Birkibrisli, the truth is that our aim, which should have been an aim of all, is not. The aim of some others is more related into finally achieving nationalist goals, gaining on the loss of others etc. Sad but true. Thats why I don't bother much created posts like the above anymore. I decided it is a waste of time.

[Piratis]

Now can you tell me what are the 3 most important considerations for you,to take us from where we are to the next stage???(Next stage being a part-solution which will get things on the way.)

For me the most important thing is that before we start making steps there is a clear agreement on were these steps will lead. And the plan to be designed in such a way that nobody will be able to take just the steps they need, and then use them as a stepping stone to achieve other objectives.

In the case of Annan plan, as Serdar Denctash said, for him (and obviously many others), that plan was a stepping stone so that later TCs could achieve a Serbia-Montenegro or Czechoslovakia split. He started talking about a split of the federation even before the federation happened!

The second most important thing is that all steps are made in a balanced way so both sides will always have a need to take the next step.

If for example with one step TCs can take 90% of their rights/needs, while GCs only 10%, then TCs will be very reluctant to make the next step (and vice versa).

The 3rd is that from the time of the agreement and the beginning of the implementation of these steps, no additional illegal actions should be performed. This means no more sales of GC properties to foreigners, no more settlers etc.

[BirKibrisli]

Bir, we have tried the "carrot fruit" with Turkey, in the case of EU. Do you see Turkey making any compromises? I don't. Turks have a few more days lets hope that they will prove me wrong.
If the "carrot" will not work either, then what other alternatives do we have?

However lets see it from a historical viewpoint. Can you give me an example in history were the Turks gave up any part of land that they occupied because of "carrots" or because they were convinced that their occupation was unfair?

On the other hand I can give you many examples where the Turks were forced (not necessarily by war) to give up areas that their army occupied not just for decades but for centuries. I am sure the Turks were really mad, and dig their shoes and all that for each one of those times, but this doesn't change the facts of history.

Therefore I believe that this is not an easy alternative, it is not something that will have instant results, but it is realistic (as history proves) and it appears to be the only alternative that the Turks allow us to have.

Please understand that I wish there was a better way. And I am listening if you have any concrete proposals in that direction. If you to, and it works, we will build for you a statue 150 meters tall

Forget about the statue.A free and democratic Cyprus will be enough.
Okey,Piratis...You and I want the same thing.So lets see how we can get there.Take it step by step.Forget about what is right or wrong or what happened in history.Do you agree that the next step would be a two state (bizonal) federation of some sort? If you do,what would give you enough sense of justice in such an interim solution? Please just concentrate on this issue.What is the minimum requirements of GCs to move forward one step out of this impass?

[BirKibrisli]

Sorry,Piratis...I wrote the above post withour reading your final last two posts.But try to humour me.Lets do this exercise one step at a time.It won't matter if we don't get there.Lets try.Do you agree that the next stage would have to be a bizonal federation of some sort?

[Piratis]

Forget about the statue.A free and democratic Cyprus will be enough.
Okey,Piratis...You and I want the same thing.So lets see how we can get there.Take it step by step.Forget about what is right or wrong or what happened in history.Do you agree that the next step would be a two state (bizonal) federation of some sort? If you do,what would give you enough sense of justice in such an interim solution? Please just concentrate on this issue.What is the minimum requirements of GCs to move forward one step out of this impass?

As I said the first requirement is to agree on what the final solution will be. Me and you agree, but what about the rest? If the rest do not agree then they can use any moves, not as steps toward what the two of us believe is right, but as stepping stones to achieve what they want.

If such agreement is not feasible, then the "fallback" would be an interim solution where if it doesn't proceed to the next step as me and you want it , and if everything brakes down, that at least their will be a fair land distribution.

So at this point, based on todays facts, I would say that the minimum requirement for GCs should be that the south state is no less than 82% of land and cost line.

Just like TCs want separation to feel secure in the case we brake our promises, we want our fare share of land to feel secure that we will not be screwed again if things do not work out.

[BirKibrisli]

Thank you,Piratis.
Lets see if we can get Viewpoint to come to the party.
Viewpoint...Can we all agree that the final solution for Cyprus is one united, independent,democratic state where ethnic origins do not matter at all,and where everybody respects each others differences,and equal opportunity reigns supreme???Don't worry about how to get there at this point...Do you agree that would be a very desirable goal?

Zan...feel free to come in too if you are about.

[Viewpoint]

Sorry,Piratis...I wrote the above post withour reading your final last two posts.But try to humour me.Lets do this exercise one step at a time.It won't matter if we don't get there.Lets try.Do you agree that the next stage would have to be a bizonal federation of some sort?

Birkıbrısli I have tried this stage by stage approach with Piratis in the past and we have taken the same steps you intend taking. His blanket negativity and style will thwart your attempt to put the building blocks in place to construct any sort of plan to resolve the Cyprus problem.

He may treat you with kid gloves but he will strangle your attempts to move forward with his narrow vision and lack of understanding to compromise, his whole approach is not a gradual process allowing us time to mature and discover that a united Cyprus is the best way forward for everyone, his sole aim is to reduce the TC into a minority status like the blacks in the USA or the Indians in the UK, what he doesn't realize is that we are more like the Welsh or the Scottish in the UK.

[Viewpoint]

Thank you,Piratis.
Lets see if we can get Viewpoint to come to the party.
Viewpoint...Can we all agree that the final solution for Cyprus is one united, independent,democratic state where ethnic origins do not matter at all,and where everybody respects each others differences,and equal opportunity reigns supreme???Don't worry about how to get there at this point...Do you agree that would be a very desirable goal?

Zan...feel free to come in too if you are about.

For the sake of this exercise I agree that this should be our ultimate goal.