Cyprus-Forum.com

[zan]

I realise that and am all for it but how do you see us getting there.????

[BirKibrisli]

I know you deserve a more serious answer,Zan...Here is one:


If I had a magic wand...I'd make all hatred,bitterness,and distrust disappear from all Cypriot hearts. Love and compassion and empathy will break out one sunny morning all over Cyprus.All refugees will return to their homes,or will be justly compensated.Everybody will speak 3 languages (Greek/Turkish Cypriot and English),believe in two religions (you know the ones).There will be no need for check points or borders.
Racism,bigotry and chavinism,and unthinking Greek and Turkish nationalism will disappear,politicians will fight their wars solely on economic,social and environmental issues.We will live in a Republic where everyone is equal,and fully enjoy their human and democratic rights. We will have no defence force.Public order will be maintained by Cypriot police.Everyone will have one vote one value.Schools will be truly enlightened educational institutions where our children will learn to love and respect each other because we are all human.I will go back to my village in Paphos and together with Kifeas operate a down- to- earth,alternative tourist hotel.You can come and stay whenever you like for free.The presidential suite will be reserved for dear Alexios,and Cypezokyli will be in charge of public relations.We will let Bananiot know when Kifeas will be away,so he can come and enjoy our hospitality...

But I don't have a bloody magic wand...So I'll settle for a solution which will give the TCs enough sense of security to kiss the Turkish troops goodbye,and which will give the GCs enough sense of justice and fairness,to make the long road to becoming true Cypriots peaceful and exciting...so that Cyprus can become like I described above...
But don't ask me how? I already said I don't have a magic wand...

[BirKibrisli]

I realise that and am all for it but how do you see us getting there.????

I thought I said not to ask me how...

[zan]

OK! Harry Potter. When you get your magic wand I have a little alteration I would like you to make for me. Look out girls here I come......

[Piratis]

In the long term there will be no restrictions on people settling where ever they wish.

Viewpoint. You said that one of the reasons that you demand more than 18% of land is that some GCs will live in the northern state. I asked you if no TC will live in the southern state and you gave me the above answer. So since TCs will also live in the southern state, do you retract your statement that one of the reasons that you want more than 18% of land is because some GCs will live in the northern state?

Please recheck the UK example the ethnic population ratio has never determined the land distribution between the English, Welsh, Scottish and Irish. Don't forget these states can even enter their own eg Welsh team into international sports events.

Was Scotland created by ethnically cleansing the English majority from the north part of the UK? The Scottish own their territory. TCs do not own the northern part of Cyprus, but illegally occupy it.
Therefore the creation of such state will be something totally artificial.

Piratis I think you misunderstand TCs we do not want to exclude GCs from from returning and living in the north state but we do need to feel that we can have a state which is locally administered by TCs, this will help the majority of TCs get over their fear of being dominated by the numerically larger and GC community. Can you understand this? it is not to far off the UK and USA example.

It is far off. Was the black minority in the USA given their own separate state to be administered by them?
States in the USA belong to all USA citizens, not to separate races. Every American has the right to settle with full rights in any state that he wants. Somebody can move from Alaska to Florida and then become the governor of Florida.
What you are asking for Cyprus is totally different.
Still we can agree to that as a compromise as long as the rest things that you are asking for are reasonable. Asking for 29%+ of land, for example, is not.

What good will this level of a split provide when you consider that in the long term all Cypriots will be able to settle where ever they wish just like all EU citizens, and that we are united as one country.

If the % of land is irrelevant for you, then why you make it a big deal and you insist for so much?
And when you talk about the "long term" are you talking about a pre-agreed, pre-signed agreement that will take effect in some years from now?

If we as you say would need your agreement in creating a separate state as 2 different countries then I personally would see no argument in accepting the 18/82 split allowing for the settlement of land disputed issues to be solved on an international level by experts and their decision to be final and binding to both sides.

You need our agreement to create anything different from the 1960 agreements. Regarding the International experts, RoC has asked from Turkey many times to take the Cyprus issue to the international court at Hague, but Turkey refused.

What are we requesting that is not sensible?you keep saying this but please clarify so I can try and understand exactly what you are referring to.

Many things. A good example is the issue we discuss now. You want us to make a compromise and accept to turn unitary RoC into federation that you like better, and at the same time you want your state to be 29%+ of land while you are the 18%. So basically you want everything your way with demands that are not sensible at all.

So a settler who arrived in 1978 with children born here now in their twenties should all be sent back??? do you think this humane? will you do the same with the Pontiac Greeks?? or other settlers/immigrants? who arrived more than 10 years ago.

I and many TCs think that there will be cases where settlers can stay, if they do not occupy GC property and have been living here in Cyprus for a period of more than 5/10 years (according to EU norms I think its 5 years but this can be negotiated), it would be inhumane to send these people back unless they were given incentives.

Greeks (including Pontians), British, Polish etc, are in Cyprus legally as EU citizens, not as Cyprus citizens. If you manage to convince EU to make an exception for Cyprus in order to limit the amount of EU citizens that are allowed in Cyprus I have no problem with that.

Of course an exception can be made for some Turkish settlers, but those settlers will be foreigners in Cyprus (just like Pontian Greeks) and not given the citizenship of Cyprus.

What is outrageous please clarify your points to help me understand exactly how our rights will be effected?

I gave you the example of land distribution above, since this is part of the current discussion. If you want we can start a new thread and list them all (although we have done this many times already)

Its when you adopt this brick wall blanket arrogant attitude is when I go into my we partition is probably the best solution for all attitude, so cant you see that its your reaction which cause mine reminiscent of the Enosis Taksim era, one was a result of the other. Your positivity will breed the same from me and many other TCs. Try it and see.

Viewpoint, have I ever advocated enosis? You say that your taksim is a reaction to enosis, but it seems to me for you taksim is your reaction to everything that you do not agree with. All I am asking for is human rights, democracy and a united Cyprus, what is so arrogant with this?

Arent we doing that by allowing GCs/TCs to vote for any GC or TC candidate irrelevant of which state they reside in the top 80 Gcs and top 20 TCs will get the job.

But why can't the same be done on the state level? If you consider a specific power share agreement as fair for running the country, then why can't the same be fair for running a state within the country?

You keep making this comparison but our history dictates our future prospects and the Kurds are not on the same motorway as us, we are all travelling forwards but via different routes as our circumstances differ. If they also have a partnership agreement with Turkey then I would support you 100%.

I am not sure about which "partnership agreement" you mean, but if it is fair for TCs/GCs to have some kind of agreement, then why it is not fair for Turks/Kurds to have the same?

I resent this comment will you please apologize and retract it as I have never stated such rubbish. This is a punch below the belt I have never said I want either side completely exterminated, I have always stated GCs have the right to live on this island in peace just like us. Its you that tell us to go live in Turkey or your past thats says we TCs were to be annihilated in what was it 45 minutes, I'm sure its something you are not proud of.

Viewpoint, don't you support that ethnically cleansing people from their homeland is the recipie for peace? Don't you support that what you did in 1974 was a peace operation?
Nobody said that you have to be annihilated. Based on your theory of ethnic cleansing for peace, we could leave side by side, us in Cyprus and you in Turkey, in peace. It could be even more "peaceful" that way since we would have sea separating us. Aren't you trying to convince us all this time that the more separated we are the better?

Personally I disagree with your theory about "peace" and I hope that one day you will realize that ethnically cleansing people from the homeland can not be called "peace".

[Piratis]

In another post you said that you believed (b) is not going to happen any time soon. I agree with you. But (a) will probably never happen. There are much more chances that the balance of power will change than Cypriots getting any smarter (unfortunate but true). This is why I keep talking about the change in the balance of power and that this is were we should give our main emphasis and assist in this direction with whatever little power we have.
Many people think that when I talk about the change in balance of power and about being very strict with Turkey is because I want war. The truth is that war for me is the last option. What I want is to make the CY Problem as costly to Turkey as possible, and to bring Turkey in a situation were they will be forced to accept a fair solution to the Cyprus problem. It is not easy, it is not going to work overnight, but I believe is the best realistic alternative we have.

Hmmm...The question is though,"Is it really a realistic alternative"?
I'd say it is not realistic because Turkey will only dig her toes in if she is threatened with a stick.That is not only in the nature of the Turkish people,but also dictated by the current political situation there. No Turkish government can be seen to give way to intimidation and threats.Especially not to their historical "enemy". It would be better to think of some "carrot" instead.The overridding fear and suspicion in the Turkish psych is :"Nobody loves us because we are Turkish AND because we are Muslim..." Hence," we must stick together,because a Turk's friend is only another Turk".Any carrot dangled in front of Turkey has to work towards dispelling these fears.Both individually and collectively.The more Turkey feels they are under attack from all sides,the more they will hang onto the status quo. That is why threats of "make them pay dearly" and "waiting for a suitable opportunity to wage war" are counterproductive. There is a very popular saying in Turkey at the moment which all journalists and commentators use :" Is the intention to eat grapes or beat up the vineyard keeper?" If the GC motivation appears to be "to beat up the vineyard keeper" then we can forget about a peaceful solution. And we can forget about a non-peaceful solution because that won't be a solution at all. Just another bloody episode in the infernal cycle of conflict.

Bir, we have tried the "carrot fruit" with Turkey, in the case of EU. Do you see Turkey making any compromises? I don't. Turks have a few more days lets hope that they will prove me wrong.
If the "carrot" will not work either, then what other alternatives do we have?

However lets see it from a historical viewpoint. Can you give me an example in history were the Turks gave up any part of land that they occupied because of "carrots" or because they were convinced that their occupation was unfair?

On the other hand I can give you many examples where the Turks were forced (not necessarily by war) to give up areas that their army occupied not just for decades but for centuries. I am sure the Turks were really mad, and dig their shoes and all that for each one of those times, but this doesn't change the facts of history.

Therefore I believe that this is not an easy alternative, it is not something that will have instant results, but it is realistic (as history proves) and it appears to be the only alternative that the Turks allow us to have.

Please understand that I wish there was a better way. And I am listening if you have any concrete proposals in that direction. If you to, and it works, we will build for you a statue 150 meters tall

[Viewpoint]

Piratis I have tried very hard to be flexible but you have not budged one inch on any issue. Even on the settlers issue of people, human beings who have been living here for 30 years who have children born here, they have put down roots in this country and you just dismiss them by saying they should be classed as foreigners then I despair and start to question your real motives, this is heartless and inhumane to uproot not only people who arrived thirty years ago but to reduce their off spring to foreign status just about sums up your whole outlook towards finding a solution both sides can commit to.

Do you read back what you post and understand the negative blanket you throw over any middle ground, you dismiss any arguments put before you and suggest I go live in Turkey, do you feel I should adopt the same brick wall attitude that you exhibit to every point I and other posters put forward, please tell me, am I wasting my time discussing issues with you? as that's the impression I get. I could counter argue all the points you have put forward but I really feel this would be a waste of time and arguing with someone who does not want to listen to other people views and compromise but just wants to force their own down people throats.

Tell me which it is as so the we do not argue back and forth in vain as you show absolutely no flexibility what so ever and come across as some who even begrudges us the air that we breath.

[Piratis]

Viewpoint, tell me one single compromise from your rights that you have made.

I will tell you several compromises from our rights that we have made:

1) Accepted a federal solution for Cyprus
2) Accepted that some settlers will stay
3) Accepted that TCs will have some more power than what they had with the 1960 agreements
etc


Now tell me what are your compromises from your rights. Because for you a compromise means to steal a lot, then give a bit back from what you stole and call that a compromise!!! Oh, Please! Don't be so compromising

And as if all those compromises we made were not enough, you even expect us to compromise our basic human and democratic rights, as if we are animals, so you can gain on our loss even more.

And then you say you are "flexible"? Thats the biggest joke ever my friend.

You support illegalities and crimes in Cyprus, you keep 200.000 people out of their homes at gun point, your brought all those settlers in Cyprus illegally in violation of the Geneva treaty in order to change the demographics in Cyprus, and then you call me "inhumane" because I want your illegalities and crimes to finally end???

Of course I didn't expect anything better from you. I said many times in the past that discussing with people like you is a total waste of time as the only thing that you want is to Turkify the northern part of our country.

[pitsilos]

Piratis I have tried very hard to be flexible but you have not budged one inch on any issue. Even on the settlers issue of people, human beings who have been living here for 30 years who have children born here, they have put down roots in this country and you just dismiss them by saying they should be classed as foreigners then I despair and start to question your real motives, this is heartless and inhumane to uproot not only people who arrived thirty years ago but to reduce their off spring to foreign status just about sums up your whole outlook towards finding a solution both sides can commit to.

why should the legal owners of the ancestral lands, that were ethnically cleansed give a shit about the settlers? why is it their problem?

and why are you standing up for the settler rights, while ignoring the rights of the 200,000 people?

and what makes you think that the rights of a settler precedes that rights of the ethnically cleansed individual.

piratis, communications with vp should be limited to a ping.

[Viewpoint]

Viewpoint, tell me one single compromise from your rights that you have made.

I will tell you several compromises from our rights that we have made:

1) Accepted a federal solution for Cyprus
2) Accepted that some settlers will stay
3) Accepted that TCs will have some more power than what they had with the 1960 agreements
etc


Now tell me what are your compromises from your rights. Because for you a compromise means to steal a lot, then give a bit back from what you stole and call that a compromise!!! Oh, Please! Don't be so compromising

And as if all those compromises we made were not enough, you even expect us to compromise our basic human and democratic rights, as if we are animals, so you can gain on our loss even more.

And then you say you are "flexible"? Thats the biggest joke ever my friend.

You support illegalities and crimes in Cyprus, you keep 200.000 people out of their homes at gun point, your brought all those settlers in Cyprus illegally in violation of the Geneva treaty in order to change the demographics in Cyprus, and then you call me "inhumane" because I want your illegalities and crimes to finally end???

Of course I didn't expect anything better from you. I said many times in the past that discussing with people like you is a total waste of time as the only thing that you want is to Turkify the northern part of our country.

What you are not seeing is the picture before you, it is no longer the 1960s when you thought you could call the shots, like it or not 1974 happened which has changed the scene totally. You obviously want to rid yourselves of the current situation, so what can you do? Compromise Vs Swing in Power. If you feel that GCs going home, the army leaving and some settlers staying vs a BB Federal solution is not worth the compromise then don't even bother to discuss the aspects of a BBF solution, as you are clearly kidding yourself and everyone else that you want a solution based on BBF.

You want GC domination so be honest and open, all the shit about refugees and army is a smoke screen, your main aim is to reduce TC into just another minority in a GC state run by GCs well this ain't gonna happen so the sooner you realize this the better it will be for everyone.

Then all I can recommend is that you wait and work for your swing in power as this is the only way you will be able to get what you want as you are clearly not willing to compromise, but this course of action does not always produce the result required as you well know, the choice is yours.

I will always support my communities safety and well being until or if a solution can be found, how long this will take is just as much up to you as it is me.