Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

The political equality/balance would exist at the federal level where the balance in numbers could still be in favour of the GC MPs but with a required minimum of TC MPs votes these minimums could be adjusted for more serious decision that would effect a community negatively.

For example 80 GC MPs 20 TC MPs are to be elected.

Everyone votes for who they want to elect as an MP from all over the island north and south, the top 80 GC candidates get in and the top 20 TC candidates get in. These MPs can come form either state.

Hopefully this would encourage mixed political parties in both states in order to be elected they would have to produce not only GC MPs but also TC MPs to form a government with the right balance to pass decisions as one political party.

Ok, but why can't the same be applied within the state? If you consider something fair, you should consider it fair always, not only when it benefits you.

Personally I think the best solution can be though if we are willing to apply on ourselves what we demand from the others. With no double standards that shift whenever it suits us. For example if Turkey demands that a BBF is good for Cyprus, it is very hypocritical for her if she does not accept the same between Turks and Kurds in Turkey.

[BirKibrisli]

Birkibrisli, thank you once again for your response ..... I am beginning to belive that the only people who want to see a united Cyprus one that is fair to all and just to all it's people ....... are migrants like you and I who live in Autralia, primarily and I'm not sure if this is related to the disatnce or what, but it's not the same feeling attched to British/ Cypriots or American/ Cypriots. I live in Sydney Australia and have done since 1998, I grew up in Adelaide where my family settled upon our immigratin to Australia in 1981.

I am actually thinking of not logging back on again because all I read is the same old same old.

Turkish Speaking Cypriots winging of all the past hurts, Greek Speaking Cypriots winging and winning about past hurts very few people actually talk about peace marches, discussing host programs to enable children on both sides to experience the life of the oher, very few poeple suggest creating organisations that argue for a united Cyprus.

I am getting a bit bored of the same old story of the last 32 years and I choose to only refer to the last 32 years because I was 6 in 1974 and I remember the war. I choose not to go beyond that because I will enter the cycle and I am trying hard not to do that.

My post here was to get support for a Peace Park along the Green Line Buffer Zone, but all I got was a few lines of support in the first page then back to same old same old ........ you did this, we suffered this, they've done that to us, we're doing this to them ..... the fact is the average jo in Cyprus is lost in all this for the benefits of very few who stand to personally gain through this division whetehr be financially or through political power. They cannot see that Turkey can actually swollow Cyprus up in a day if they decided, they also cannot see that Turkey has not chosen to swallow then up in a day because Turkey itself is driven by the interest of the outside world. at the end back to the average jo in Cyprus who is either economically suppressed or they have not got a home to call their own and live in refugee estates ..... you go figure ....

I hope you don't give up on us so soon,my dear humanist.
I know it is terribly disheartening to see that our arguments have not progressed far in the past 32,or even 50,years.But do we really have the luxury of cutting off all communication? While we are talking,and even taking snipes at each other,we are learning one very important thing: that we are all human with our imperfections,anger,bitterness,hurt,aggression,compassion,frustration,whatever. We are also finding out that deep down we are the same people,hotblooded,stubborn,passionate,lovable,hateable,enlightened,bigoted,with the same human needs like a sense of security,attachment,satisfaction,worth and longing.All we need to do to take the next step is to allow ourselves to feel empathy.To develop the ability to put ourselves in the others shoes,and observe the world through their eyes. This has been easier for those of us who somehow escaped the hellish couldron of Cyprus politics and Greek and Turkish nationalistic chauvinism for extended periods. We probably have an elevated responsibility to try to share our feelings with those who never had a respite from official propaganda and ethnic obsessions.Our health and sanity permitting of course.

[BirKibrisli]

Yes,but that was before 1974.
How secure would you feel if Greece had 160,000 troops and 2400 tanks in Cyprus???(Assuming that the Turkish troop and tank numbers remain the same as today.)

BirK, are you kidding me? We have 800000 of the most arrogant, aggressive, unreasonable people as a direct threat to our security. That is far more dangerous and threatening than 160000 Greek troops. At least troops are disciplined and take orders from higher ranks. Fanatical civilians such as the GC's are far more dangerous. You are forgetting the fact that these people hate us with a passion. Just read what Klik, Piratis,Kifeas, Pistotis and co have to say about us. Birk you need to have a reality check

Reality operates at different levels,dear mrf.
What you see as "hate with a passion" I see as deep wounds on people's sense of justice,fairness,and honour.What is so arrogant and unreasonable about people wanting to return to their homes,protect their property and loved ones,redress their feelings of pain and suffering???

The only unreality I see is people expecting the other side to suffer all the indignities they have suffered,to satisfy their primitive revenge instict.
I am allright Jack,the hell with you,is not the way to build bridges with one's relations,compatriots,or even enemies if you like.Empathy empathy empathy is the only way to go.Try it sometime,you might be surprised at the results.

[BirKibrisli]

Bir, you talk about opportunities after an agreement is signed. So I will ask you again: Do you honestly believe that after we sign away our rights and land, the TCs will later on come and voluntarily give up even a single right or a single inch for what would then be legally theirs, to make a new more fair solution? Please answer.

If we look at history I have to say the answer to your question is:not very likely. But we can be more creative now in hindsight.We can actually build the need for regular revisions of the agreement in the future,before any rights are signed away.That could be part of the agreement.We could even agree on independent tribunals to look at the workings of our system,and suggest positive changes.I think it a mistake to expect that we will solve Cypro totally and permanently in one step.Even bigger mistake if we think we can solve it by force of arms. That would only create more pain and suffering which would lead to another period of false calm and peace,while people wait for the balance of power to change again before they make their move...That cycle is endless and most destructive.We need to break it now for the good of our country and future generations.

[Piratis]

If we look at history I have to say the answer to your question is:not very likely

I agree. It is close to impossible.

I think it a mistake to expect that we will solve Cypro totally and permanently in one step.

I agree again.

We can actually build the need for regular revisions of the agreement in the future,before any rights are signed away.That could be part of the agreement.We could even agree on independent tribunals to look at the workings of our system,and suggest positive changes.

I don't think tribunals and suggestions will be strong enough to change what we both agreed above that is impossible: TCs giving up something after it was signed away to them.

In the past, I suggested that the final solution can come in predefined stages. E.g. The agreement to say that from 2007 until Jan 1st 2010 it will be in the X way, then from Jan 1st 2010 until Jan 1st 2015 in Y way, and then the final will be Z implemented on Jan 1st 2020.
Since the changes will be pre-defined and pre-signed there will not be the issue of somebody taking too much and then naturally refusing to give up anything.

Another possible way has to do with what you said about the need for revisions. To achieve this it means that both sides should have the same strong need for revisions. This means that no side should get everything from the initial agreement. For example if GCs are imposed racist discriminations against them in the initial agreement (e.g. limit their freedom to settle anywhere within the country, or their democratic rights etc) then some racist discriminations should be imposed against TCs as well (e.g. TCs will not be allowed to trade certain goods, or practice certain professions).
This way, at some point both sides will want to make revisions remove such racist and undemocratic parameters.

Even bigger mistake if we think we can solve it by force of arms. That would only create more pain and suffering which would lead to another period of false calm and peace,while people wait for the balance of power to change again before they make their move...That cycle is endless and most destructive.We need to break it now for the good of our country and future generations.

Bir, I agree with you. However you should keep in mind that even signing an unfair racist agreement, will not be the solution and at most it will create a period of false clam as you said. (or at worst bring the bloodshed even faster)

There are two ways of ending the circle of blood:

1) One of the two sides to be exterminated completely. This is Viewpoint's kind of "peace", were you kill and ethnically cleanse everybody, and then you have "peace" (it would be that way if they exterminated as all. Since they didn't, it was just one more round in the circle of blood)

2) To find a fair[b] solution based not on what suits "us" or "them" but based on universally accepted principles like human rights and democracy. To have [b]one Cypriot people that cooperates and not two conflicting groups that are trying to gain on the loss of another. Equal citizens with no racist discriminations but surely with full protection for the numerically less Cypriots so they can maintain and expand their linguistic, religious and other traditions.

If (2) doesn't happen, then another bloody conflict will be inevitable either an agreement is signed meanwhile or not.

To take it a step further, there are two ways to achieve (2) above:

a) For Cypriots to get smarter and realize that the Cyprus problem serves nobody and that expecting to gain on the loss of another will never work. Then they can join forces, revolt against the foreigners that control them, and agree the transitional periods that will gradually bring us to the desired fair solution.

b) For the balance of power to change in such a way that "fair" and "possible" will overlap.

In another post you said that you believed (b) is not going to happen any time soon. I agree with you. But (a) will probably never happen. There are much more chances that the balance of power will change than Cypriots getting any smarter (unfortunate but true). This is why I keep talking about the change in the balance of power and that this is were we should give our main emphasis and assist in this direction with whatever little power we have.
Many people think that when I talk about the change in balance of power and about being very strict with Turkey is because I want war. The truth is that war for me is the last option. What I want is to make the CY Problem as costly to Turkey as possible, and to bring Turkey in a situation were they will be forced to accept a fair solution to the Cyprus problem. It is not easy, it is not going to work overnight, but I believe is the best realistic alternative we have.

[Viewpoint]

Piratis

And no TC will be allowed in the south state?

In the long term there will be no restrictions on people settling where ever they wish.

If we look at the figures in USA and UK, we will see there was no land distribution among the different races there. The blacks, asians, etc do not have their own separate state. Also all citizens of those countries are free to move and settle with full rights in any state that they want to. If you also accept this principle as it exists in the USA, then sure, no problem about the %. Otherwise you can say that you want 30%, 40%, 70% or whatever random percentage you want to say.

Please recheck the UK example the ethnic population ratio has never determined the land distribution between the English, Welsh, Scottish and Irish. Don't forget these states can even enter their own eg Welsh team into international sports events.

Piratis I think you misunderstand TCs we do not want to exclude GCs from from returning and living in the north state but we do need to feel that we can have a state which is locally administered by TCs, this will help the majority of TCs get over their fear of being dominated by the numerically larger and GC community. Can you understand this? it is not to far off the UK and USA example.

But considering that you have no right for a separate state unless we also agree to it, then you have to become more sensible and accept that the most fair distribution would be 18%-82%, otherwise any discussion on this will be a waste of time as we are not obligated to agree to whatever thing you ask for.

What good will this level of a split provide when you consider that in the long term all Cypriots will be able to settle where ever they wish just like all EU citizens, and that we are united as one country. If we as you say would need your agreement in creating a separate state as 2 different countries then I personally would see no argument in accepting the 18/82 split allowing for the settlement of land disputed issues to be solved on an international level by experts and their decision to be final and binding to both sides.

The only thing we are obligated to are the 1960 agreements. Beyond that the ones that violate those agreements will face consequences, until they accept the 1960 agreement or we agree for something different. But to agree for something different you have to be sensible.

What are we requesting that is not sensible?you keep saying this but please clarify so I can try and understand exactly what you are referring to.

Yes, they will be treated as Sri Lankans and any other 3rd country citizens. If they come to Cyprus legally they can work her for as long as they have work permit. If they are not legally here then they will have to go.
Of course they should be treated in humane way, and Cyprus will be responsible to make their transfer to Turkey as convenient as possible. However after that it will be a responsibility of their country to treat them in humane way.

So a settler who arrived in 1978 with children born here now in their twenties should all be sent back??? do you think this humane? will you do the same with the Pontiac Greeks?? or other settlers/immigrants? who arrived more than 10 years ago.

I and many TCs think that there will be cases where settlers can stay, if they do not occupy GC property and have been living here in Cyprus for a period of more than 5/10 years (according to EU norms I think its 5 years but this can be negotiated), it would be inhumane to send these people back unless they were given incentives.

Some of what you are asking are in fact outrageous. You said about security, I said yes, definitely. If you said about democracy, about human rights, again, definitely we should guarantee these for all Cypriots.

But when you demand things that you have no right for and which would in fact violate the human and democratic rights of 100s of thousands of people, then yes, I have the right to reject them and call the

outrageous.

What is outrageous please clarify your points to help me understand exactly how our rights will be effected?

While you want us to understand your concerns, unfortunately not only you do not understand our concerns but you still insist that our human and democratic rights should be violated. This in my opinion is a total disrespect towards us, and it should stop.

Its when you adopt this brick wall blanket arrogant attitude is when I go into my we partition is probably the best solution for all attitude, so cant you see that its your reaction which cause mine reminiscent of the Enosis Taksim era, one was a result of the other. Your positivity will breed the same from me and many other TCs. Try it and see.

Ok, but why can't the same be applied within the state? If you consider something fair, you should consider it fair always, not only when it benefits you.

Arent we doing that by allowing GCs/TCs to vote for any GC or TC candidate irrelevant of which state they reside in the top 80 Gcs and top 20 TCs will get the job.

Personally I think the best solution can be though if we are willing to apply on ourselves what we demand from the others. With no double standards that shift whenever it suits us. For example if Turkey demands that a BBF is good for Cyprus, it is very hypocritical for her if she does not accept the same between Turks and Kurds in Turkey.

You keep making this comparison but our history dictates our future prospects and the Kurds are not on the same motorway as us, we are all travelling forwards but via different routes as our circumstances differ. If they also have a partnership agreement with Turkey then I would support you 100%.

1) One of the two sides to be exterminated completely. This is Viewpoint's kind of "peace", were you kill and ethnically cleanse everybody, and then you have "peace" (it would be that way if they exterminated as all. Since they didn't, it was just one more round in the circle of blood)

I resent this comment will you please apologize and retract it as I have never stated such rubbish. This is a punch below the belt I have never said I want either side completely exterminated, I have always stated GCs have the right to live on this island in peace just like us. Its you that tell us to go live in Turkey or your past thats says we TCs were to be annihilated in what was it 45 minutes, I'm sure its something you are not proud of.

[zan]

Piratis you truly are proficient in political spin and diverting blame. You make statements that if it serves your purpose you are willing to exterminate all TCs and then accuse VP of it. The thought that you might one day be a part of Cypriot politics sends shivers down my spine. I have no idea why any body is still trying to get you to agree on any agreements because it is your way or the highway as far as that is concerned and on that note, without the need for detail, the TCs cannot accept your way so the status quo is to last. It will only last until we can win the acceptance of a few other countries though and that seems to be what is happening. I agree all that could change but we will do all we can not to let it.

[BirKibrisli]

In another post you said that you believed (b) is not going to happen any time soon. I agree with you. But (a) will probably never happen. There are much more chances that the balance of power will change than Cypriots getting any smarter (unfortunate but true). This is why I keep talking about the change in the balance of power and that this is were we should give our main emphasis and assist in this direction with whatever little power we have.
Many people think that when I talk about the change in balance of power and about being very strict with Turkey is because I want war. The truth is that war for me is the last option. What I want is to make the CY Problem as costly to Turkey as possible, and to bring Turkey in a situation were they will be forced to accept a fair solution to the Cyprus problem. It is not easy, it is not going to work overnight, but I believe is the best realistic alternative we have.

Hmmm...The question is though,"Is it really a realistic alternative"?
I'd say it is not realistic because Turkey will only dig her toes in if she is threatened with a stick.That is not only in the nature of the Turkish people,but also dictated by the current political situation there. No Turkish government can be seen to give way to intimidation and threats.Especially not to their historical "enemy". It would be better to think of some "carrot" instead.The overridding fear and suspicion in the Turkish psych is :"Nobody loves us because we are Turkish AND because we are Muslim..." Hence," we must stick together,because a Turk's friend is only another Turk".Any carrot dangled in front of Turkey has to work towards dispelling these fears.Both individually and collectively.The more Turkey feels they are under attack from all sides,the more they will hang onto the status quo. That is why threats of "make them pay dearly" and "waiting for a suitable opportunity to wage war" are counterproductive. There is a very popular saying in Turkey at the moment which all journalists and commentators use :" Is the intention to eat grapes or beat up the vineyard keeper?" If the GC motivation appears to be "to beat up the vineyard keeper" then we can forget about a peaceful solution. And we can forget about a non-peaceful solution because that won't be a solution at all. Just another bloody episode in the infernal cycle of conflict.

[zan]

Bir

I know that you are a "Nationalist Cypriot" as you were accused of recently but I still do not quite understand what you want from us TCs. What exactly are you asking us to do. Do you want Turkey to up and leave without concessions. Do you want the doors to the north thrown open with recourse. What?

[BirKibrisli]

Bir

I know that you are a "Nationalist Cypriot" as you were accused of recently but I still do not quite understand what you want from us TCs. What exactly are you asking us to do. Do you want Turkey to up and leave without concessions. Do you want the doors to the north thrown open with recourse. What?

All i am saaaayiiiiing...is giiiveee peace a chaaaaance.....