Cyprus-Forum.com

[Viewpoint]

Where in the world do you distribute the land mass according to population size size?. This notion is ridiculous. then all nations should reduce their size according to the sale of land to foreign nationals.

Viewpoint, did you make a mistake and wrote "nations" above?

Mistake or not, we know very well, that what you will accept is either a "solution" that will be partition, or a "solution" that will be a stepping stone for partition.

This is why we will NEVER accept your outrageous demands.

You said again that land is distributed only with wars, it is not the first time. We got the point, thanks. We will keep it in mind and you will see the results sooner or later. Meanwhile rot in your pseudo state for as long as you can have it.

What is your problem if the north state is 30 40 50% if refugees are allowed to return and they can vote for whom ever they want and people all over the island can settle where they want?? whats your objection now as I am 100% sure you will have one as you always do.

[DT.]

Birkıbrıslı your attempts to reconcile our differences are in vain, as you can clearly see one side is far from ready to compromise on anything in order to achieve the ultimate goal, before passing the first hurdle your "Compatriot" has shot you down. He is unwilling to budge one inch to resolve issues, its either his way or the highway attitude will get us absolutely nowhere, like the last 32 years. They have conveniently hidden behind Denktas and now they have had to come out and face the music as it was them that last rejected a UN/Internationally brokered comprehensive solution which confirmed to the world the side that wants a solution. They can explain why they said no until they are blue in the face the bottom line is the last attempt at a solution was thwarted by the GCs.

So Bir you really need to revise your outlook and even come live here on the island as there are plenty more Piratis's in the south who will dampen, ridicule and brush aside your concerns thus demolish your desire for any type of reunification.

does this mean because you refused to budge from the 18% that its also your way or the highway?

Off course you look positive in this light because as always you are given far more than you should get before any negotiation even starts to take place.

DO you or don't you agree that 18% of the population should administer 18 of the land?

If you don't you yourself have proven how intransigent you are in negotiations.

[BirKibrisli]

Bir, what you say regarding one democratic united cyprus with one ethnicity is what i believe the majority of the GC's want a well. However you need to get over the concern of the TC' which are worried that thi way thery would be asimilated into the majority and everyone would be GC in the end.

I know most TCs are concerned about assimilation also,but their biggest concern is for their physical safety.This is based on the events of 55-74,about which GCs under 40 know very little it seems. Unless we address this realistically the only hope of changing the status quo is via another war as Piratis points out..And where will that get us? Another cold war followed by yet more hot conflict and misery.Is that really the legacy we want to leave our children and theirs? Have we not suffered enough?

[Piratis]

What is your problem if the north state is 30 40 50% if refugees are allowed to return and they can vote for whom ever they want and people all over the island can settle where they want?? whats your objection now as I am 100% sure you will have one as you always do.

My objections are clear:

1) 18%-82% is the most fair. If, as you say the % doesn't matter, would you accept 5% for the north state? You wouldn't. In the same way I do not accept 29%.
2) Your dreams have always been for partition. You told us many times how Serbia-Montenegro had the right to take "divorce" etc. You see such agreement as a stepping stone for partition and that is why you want the more land possible. Otherwise, if according to Bir one day we will have just one unitary state, why would it matter so much to you to take such an disproportionally big piece? Viewpoint, you can swear at me and say whatever you want, but deep down I know you know I am not stupid.
3) In the same way that you site security reasons and you don't want to live in a GC administered state, many of our refugees feel the same. Much more will return if they can do so under GC administration.

Are my objections good enough for you?

Now tell us again why you insist on 29%? Because "nations" are created with wars and you can not give back much of what you stole from us with war. Thats your "reason" right?

[BirKibrisli]

Birkıbrıslı your attempts to reconcile our differences are in vain, as you can clearly see one side is far from ready to compromise on anything in order to achieve the ultimate goal, before passing the first hurdle your "Compatriot" has shot you down. He is unwilling to budge one inch to resolve issues, its either his way or the highway attitude will get us absolutely nowhere, like the last 32 years. They have conveniently hidden behind Denktas and now they have had to come out and face the music as it was them that last rejected a UN/Internationally brokered comprehensive solution which confirmed to the world the side that wants a solution. They can explain why they said no until they are blue in the face the bottom line is the last attempt at a solution was thwarted by the GCs.

So Bir you really need to revise your outlook and even come live here on the island as there are plenty more Piratis's in the south who will dampen, ridicule and brush aside your concerns thus demolish your desire for any type of reunification.

My problem is Viewpoint that I can see where you are coming from,and I can see where Piratis is coming from.It is more and more apparent that the key to our problem is lack of trust,and strong suspicion of each others motives. You cannot trust Piratis with your safety,and he doesn't believe that you are really concerned about safety but want to keep the spoils of war. That is why if there is going to be a peaceful solution,it will be in stages and over a long period,allowing for measures to remove most if not all mistrust and suspicion. But i must admit it seems most difficult,given that we are stuck in our trenches,and want to achieve what is fair and sensible in one easy step. If it was that easy we wouldn't be where we are after all these years.Pity...Because I know for sure that any solution achieved through bloodshed will never be fair or sensible...

[Viewpoint]

Piratis

1) 18%-82% is the most fair. If, as you say the % doesn't matter, would you accept 5% for the north state? You wouldn't. In the same way I do not accept 29%.

You notion of land distribution according to population is ridiculous as aren't we trying to give as many refugees back their rights to their properties as possible? Those GCs that fall into the TCs 26-29% state will have the right to come back so they will make up the difference.

I accept that 18% vs 82% will be more realistic if were agreeing partition, but we are not doing that, we are trying to form a BBF.

2) Your dreams have always been for partition. You told us many times how Serbia-Montenegro had the right to take "divorce" etc. You see such agreement as a stepping stone for partition and that is why you want the more land possible. Otherwise, if according to Bir one day we will have just one unitary state, why would it matter so much to you to take such an disproportionally big piece? Viewpoint, you can swear at me and say whatever you want, but deep down I know you know I am not stupid.

We have argued those points before but what I am trying to debate now is not division but on what basis we would find a 2 states resolve under a Federal framework, you seem to be struggling with this idea. Or is it your only intention to create a GC unitary state? as that's the impression your are giving me and many others.

Did I just say you are stupid? but you lack of willing to compromise has even surprised people like Bir who is clearly pro reunification and is more flexible than many on this forum. ı know your stance very well so it didn't really surprise me in the slightest. Plus you are the one always calling me an idiot, bigot, thief, greedy, parasite and anything else you can think of. I'm just a normal guy with a family to protect and raise, we only want to live in peace without any threat or fear, we want to also have have control over our own future and not put it in the hands of purely GCs, is that so difficult to understand?

3) In the same way that you site security reasons and you don't want to live in a GC administered state, many of our refugees feel the same. Much more will return if they can do so under GC administration.

This i can understand but isn't this what you have been telling us for years, your fears are lame excuses you put forward just so as not to unite. ıf we can get both states to function along the same lines and in co-operation whats the fear? they will have the same rights has anyone else, the reverse will be applicable to those TCs who choose the south state.

Now tell us again why you insist on 29%? Because "nations" are created with wars and you can not give back much of what you stole from us with war. That's your "reason" right?

Look you are taking things out of context i was referring to other nations as an example. I feel that as many GC refugees should be given back their property outright so adjustments along the borders to 25% or around this area to accommodate as many as possible imho would not be objected to by the majority of TCs, the TCs concerns are more related with security as I have said many times.

[DT.]

I'll tell you what the problem is with 18% of the pop administering 50% of the land.

1) The federation solution is something that the TC's came up with to protect their people under their own administration. You did not propoe it to house GC's under it.
2) If 18% of the pop has 50% of the land that means that the GC population living in those areas will have no right to elect a leader even though they will be the majority of the population!!!!!

Where do you think we are 1970's South africa?

[Viewpoint]

I'll tell you what the problem is with 18% of the pop administering 50% of the land.

1) The federation solution is something that the TC's came up with to protect their people under their own administration. You did not propoe it to house GC's under it.
2) If 18% of the pop has 50% of the land that means that the GC population living in those areas will have no right to elect a leader even though they will be the majority of the population!!!!!

Where do you think we are 1970's South africa?

Thats just not the case and what we have been debating, go back and read the thread.

[Sotos]

Viewpoint, why do you need 29% to feel secure? You want your own state to feel secure and I would also feel more secure to return home in my own state. You want us to care about your concern for security but you don't care about our concern for security! You are only good in demanding even when you have no good excuse for what you demand.

2) Your dreams have always been for partition. You told us many times how Serbia-Montenegro had the right to take "divorce" etc. You see such agreement as a stepping stone for partition and that is why you want the more land possible.

I think thats it Piratis. It is the only explanation.

[DT.]

Where in the world do you distribute the land mass according to population size size?. This notion is ridiculous. then all nations should reduce their size according to the sale of land to foreign nationals.

Viewpoint, did you make a mistake and wrote "nations" above?

Mistake or not, we know very well, that what you will accept is either a "solution" that will be partition, or a "solution" that will be a stepping stone for partition.

This is why we will NEVER accept your outrageous demands.

You said again that land is distributed only with wars, it is not the first time. We got the point, thanks. We will keep it in mind and you will see the results sooner or later. Meanwhile rot in your pseudo state for as long as you can have it.

What is your problem if the north state is 30 40 50% if refugees are allowed to return and they can vote for whom ever they want and people all over the island can settle where they want?? whats your objection now as I am 100% sure you will have one as you always do.

You're contradicting yourself. If you have 30-40-50% under a TC administration and people can vote for whoever they want in those cantons then the majority greeks in the TC canton will vote for a greek, and then it won't be a tc conton anymore.

Since i know you made a mistake with this I'm helping you out....18% of the pop for 18% of the land.