Cyprus-Forum.com

[BirKibrisli]

I am sure that when the day comes,and we are mature enough to agree on a just and permanent solution,we will need a monument to remind us the bad old days when we thought our brothers and sisters were our enemies. What better idea than a peace monument in a peace park situated in the old green line? Lets keep this dream alive,dear humanist.Cypriots deserve better than what they are getting now.

[Piratis]

Hello Birkibrisli,

Do you honestly believe that it is a matter of maturity here? "Just" can be 2 things:

1) what is legal
2) Whatever each one wants.

If we go by 1, then the just solution is the return to the 1960 agreements. Do you see this happening?
2 can never happen, since what is just for GCs is apparently not just for the majority of TCs. Do you see their opinion changing?

[BirKibrisli]

Hello Birkibrisli,

Do you honestly believe that it is a matter of maturity here? "Just" can be 2 things:

1) what is legal
2) Whatever each one wants.

If we go by 1, then the just solution is the return to the 1960 agreements. Do you see this happening?
2 can never happen, since what is just for GCs is apparently not just for the majority of TCs. Do you see their opinion changing?

Hello,Piratis...
I still think our best bet is to return to the 1960 agreement with some changes to make it more democratic and less ethnic based.Do I see it happening? No.Because only very few people like myself see this as a desirable solution.
The majority of TCs will not change their minds either.They will not be allowed to.And within 20 years very few original TCs will be left in Cyprus.
You guys will be discussing the Cyprus problem with those who came from Turkey and their decendants. Unless we find the "maturity" now to settle for what is realistically possible.Miracles do happen you know...

[Piratis]

I still think our best bet is to return to the 1960 agreement with some changes to make it more democratic and less ethnic based.Do I see it happening? No.Because only very few people like myself see this as a desirable solution.

I have to correct you here. You have to replace the word "people" above with "Turkish Cypriots". Because the majority of Greek Cypriots (and the majority of Cypriots in general) see this as desirable.

Unless we find the "maturity" now to settle for what is realistically possible.Miracles do happen you know...

Yes, but now we move from "just" to "possible", which can be a totally different thing.

What is "just" remains more or less constant (if we assume we equate it with legality and other universal principles like human rights and democracy) but what is possible can change.

What is possible basically depends on the balance of power, as each side will try to take as much as possible.

This means that what we will have will not be a solution, but just continuation of the problem, since with every change in the balance of power, the "solution" will have to change (maybe in a bloody way) to reflect the new "possibilities".

So if the "solution" offered to us is unfair but possible, do you think we should:

1) Accept it now, and change it when the balance of power will change
2) Reject it

I believe the correct thing is to go with (2). What do you think?

The ideal would be when the "possible" will align with "just". For this to happen the power of Turkey should be reduced. This is where all our efforts should be concentrated.

[BirKibrisli]

Piratis...If we wait for the balance of power to change,it might take forever. As far as TCs are concerned,we don't have that luxury.Time is working against us.It frustrates me no end that others cannot see this.
Within 20 years GCs will be negotiating a settlement with primarily the settlers.What is "possible"then will be even less "just".I think we should find a temporary "possible" solution,to lead us to a permanent "just" solution.
Please let us not make the same mistake as we did in the 60s and 70s,thinking that "might" will get us where we want to go.My prediction is that in the forseeable future Turkey will only get stronger.America and Europe need a strong Turkey to balance the islamist push for dominance.
I know it doesn't seem fair to bow to the status quo achieved by force of arms,without some kind of strong resistance.But,my brother,things can still get much worse for Cypriots if we go down that path.That is why i talk about maturity these days.The maturity to agree on a possible solution which will give the TCs the sense of security they need,and which will restore the sense of(some) justice to the GCs. This is asking more of the GCs,I know,but take Turkey out ot the equation and the GCs are much the stronger side.It is not unreasonable to ask the mightier side to make more of a concession to get the country back on it feet...

[Piratis]

Birkibrisli, nobody knows what will happen in the mid to long term.
However if you want to talk about the short term. lets do it.

Within 20 years GCs will be negotiating a settlement with primarily the settlers.

The negotiations right now are with Turkey, via their proxies in Cyprus. Do you think TCs have the power to take any decisions?

What is "possible"then will be even less "just"

If it is less just it will be rejected. To give you an example is like telling me that the "offer" today is to being shot with 3 bullets on the head, but tomorrow it will be "worst" as it will be 5 bullets. Would it matter?

I think we should find a temporary "possible" solution,to lead us to a permanent "just" solution.

Here is what the future Viewpoint(=majority of TCs) will say about this: "If you didn't like it you shouldn't have signed it. Now the north part of Cyprus belongs exclusively to us. This is the just permanent solution and nothing more".
Do you seriously expect that TCs after they would make all these gains on our loss they will come and voluntarily give up things in order to achieve something fair?

But,my brother,things can still get much worse for Cypriots if we go down that path.

Worst in what way? Turkey will lanch a second invasion and occupy the whole of Cyprus?
Because apart from that I can't see in what way it can get worst for us that what we have now. If they try to make it even worst with things like Annan plan etc, we can simply reject them.

The maturity to agree on a possible solution which will give the TCs the sense of security they need,and which will restore the sense of(some) justice to the GCs. This is asking more of the GCs,I know,but take Turkey out ot the equation and the GCs are much the stronger side.It is not unreasonable to ask the mightier side to make more of a concession to get the country back on it feet...

Ok Birkibrisli, but what is this possible solution that you are talking about? Can you be a bit more specific here?
Of course we are ready to make compromises. But those compromises have some limit. You can't "solve" the problem by making the "solution" worst than the problem, right? That is what the Annan plan was, It was a "more problems plan" not a solution plan.

To make the solution better than the problem for GCs, then this solution must be significantly better than the Annan plan, not just some minor changes. Would the TCs vote for such plan?

Say one that more land is returned under GC administration, more refugees return to their homes, more settlers leave, and where the constitution will be a federal one, not a loose confederation like the Annan plan?
Without even going deeper in this, I don't see TCs accepting it. So what is this "possible" you are talking about?

I hope you are not suggesting that GCs should add more problems on themselves so TCs can solve theirs. Right?

[BirKibrisli]

The negotiations right now are with Turkey, via their proxies in Cyprus. Do you think TCs have the power to take any decisions?

The TCs don't have the power to decide anything now,but at least they have to be listened to.They can still influence what decisions are made.
In the future,only the voices of the partitionists will be heard,and when the AKP government goes,its replacement will only be less inclined to make any concessions at all.I am not fond of Erdogan,but in the Cyprus issue his government is the only one that will give way.If we wait much longer this window of opportunity will not be there.

To give you an example is like telling me that the "offer" today is to being shot with 3 bullets on the head, but tomorrow it will be "worst" as it will be 5 bullets. Would it matter?

What if the "offer" today is to be shot 3 times in the leg,but tommorow it is to be shot once in the head.Which will you take?

Here is what the future Viewpoint(=majority of TCs) will say about this: "If you didn't like it you shouldn't have signed it. Now the north part of Cyprus belongs exclusively to us. This is the just permanent solution and nothing more".
Do you seriously expect that TCs after they would make all these gains on our loss they will come and voluntarily give up things in order to achieve something fair?

The TCs will have to accept they can't have everything their way.As far as I can tell their overriding fear is for their physical safety. If that can be guaranteed (say with reduced presence of some Turkish troops) I think they will be willing to compromise.

Ok Birkibrisli, but what is this possible solution that you are talking about? Can you be a bit more specific here?
Of course we are ready to make compromises. But those compromises have some limit. You can't "solve" the problem by making the "solution" worst than the problem, right? That is what the Annan plan was, It was a "more problems plan" not a solution plan.

A "possible" solution might be a BBF which guarantees most people the right of return,fair compensation,and sense of physical security.Both sides will compromise to achieve a reduction in troop and settler numbers,and introduction of measures to improve trust and cooperation amongst Cypriots.If they can dismantle peacefully the apartheit regime in South Africa,we should be able to achieve something similar in Cyprus.Don't you think?

[bg_turk]

The TCs don't have the power to decide anything now...

Bikibrisli, this is a distortion. The TRNC is a democratic state with a democratically elected government, and although Turkey may have disproportionat powers some times as the sole guarantor of the security of the Republic, the soveregnity rests entirely on its people.

[BirKibrisli]

The TCs don't have the power to decide anything now...

Bikibrisli, this is a distortion. The TRNC is a democratic state with a democratically elected government, and although Turkey may have disproportionat powers some times as the sole guarantor of the security of the Republic, the soveregnity rests entirely on its people.

I wish I didn't know better,bg_turk...
On paper it might look like a democracy,but nothing has been democratic in Cyprus for Turkish speakers,right from the start.Dr Kuchuk,perhaps the only democratically elected TC ever,was replaced by Denktas on Turkey's intervention as Vice President,despite Kutchuks pleas to be allowed to continue. In turn Denktash's opponent Ahmet Berberoglu was threatened by The Turkish Embassador of the time to withdraw from the contest,leading to Denktash's unopposed election.And all this was before 1974. if you call all this democratic then we have a different definition of democracy. I won't even comment about the "democracy" practised in the north after 1974.Democray like beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
I can't help you if you want to remain blind.

[Piratis]

The TCs don't have the power to decide anything now,but at least they have to be listened to.They can still influence what decisions are made.

Which TCs should be listened to? If you are talking about the leadership, as you know they wouldn't be able to say anything out of the Ankara lines anyways. So they wouldn't say anything different than the usual.

What if the "offer" today is to be shot 3 times in the leg,but tommorow it is to be shot once in the head.Which will you take?

That depends on how you difine the current status in terms of bullets Would those 3 bullets in the leg be much better for us than what we have now?

The TCs will have to accept they can't have everything their way.As far as I can tell their overriding fear is for their physical safety. If that can be guaranteed (say with reduced presence of some Turkish troops) I think they will be willing to compromise.

Are you still talking about this: "I think we should find a temporary "possible" solution,to lead us to a permanent "just" solution."

Should these compromises by the TCs be made for the "temporary possible solution" or later for the "just solution". If it is for the first the I agree with you.

But I don't think the majority of TCs would agree. If the Cyprus problem was just an issue of guaranteeing the security of TCs it would have been solved long time ago.
Unfortunately the TCs use the security issue as an excuse. What does security has to do for example with the 18% of TCs demanding 29%+ of land. Or how does the security issue has anything to do with the amount of settlers that will remain?
The issue is more of a "we won the war and we expect to gain on your loss" thing, wrapped up in several lame excuses.

A "possible" solution might be a BBF which guarantees most people the right of return,fair compensation,and sense of physical security.Both sides will compromise to achieve a reduction in troop and settler numbers,and introduction of measures to improve trust and cooperation amongst Cypriots.

Thats still too vague Birkibrisli. Even the term "BBF" is vague as it is something invented just for Cyprus and has never agreed what it exactly means.

From my point of view, and BBF is a federation (F) and it should function the way say, Florida and California function in the USA. If you make it any looser than that, then at the very least the percentage that each state will have should be proportional to the population percentage e.g. North state 18% south state 82% of land.

If they can dismantle peacefully the apartheid regime in South Africa,we should be able to achieve something similar in Cyprus.Don't you think?

Are you suggesting that we can find a non-apartheid solution, or that we should accept apartheid hoping that at some point in the future something will change?