Cyprus-Forum.com

[Viewpoint]

That may be true alex but Turkey is not stupid I am sure she has calculated the risks involved. Next year there is an election so this government cannot be seen to be giving into EU pressure that's why I feel their will be a last minute compromise and Turkeys talks will freeze/slowdown until after the local elections which will give the current government if re-elected a stronger hand when compromising on the Cyprus issue.

Regardless of who's in power, Turkey cannot afford the current status quo in Cyprus for much longer. The Cyprus problem must be solved as soon as possible, for your own good. I know you are pro-partition, it may suit your personal interests but, don't you sometimes think of what's best for the next generations of TCs, for your children? You can't seriously believe that in a 21st century, united, EU member Cyprus there will be killings and hate between the two communities.

But when you consider that the AKP current government want to win a further term in office they will put off any major decisions that will effect the electorate negatively until they have guaranteed this term as the Turkish people are gradually moving away from the EU and the Cyprus issue has recently become even more sensitive issue where they do not want to give any concessions.

This imho is utopia and therefore after accepting the realities I have arrived at the door of supporting partition as you can see we cannot agree on even the basic of issues. Neither side displays the characteristics of wanting or desiring a reunification solution, the wounds are to deep and we are just not willing to accommodate the other side. The current situation just backs up my argument and leaves only the option of accepting like me and saying right we accept that we cannot reunite as our views are to far apart so lets work out how to formalize what we have today where GCs and TCs can choose which part of Cyprus they want to live in accepting that it will be under the administration of either the TCs or GCs. Otherwise the sides will still be arguing well into the 22nd century with no results.

[alexISS]

But when you consider that the AKP current government want to win a further term in office they will put off any major decisions that will effect the electorate negatively until they have guaranteed this term as the Turkish people are gradually moving away from the EU and the Cyprus issue has recently become even more sensitive issue where they do not want to give any concessions.

This imho is utopia and therefore after accepting the realities I have arrived at the door of supporting partition as you can see we cannot agree on even the basic of issues. Neither side displays the characteristics of wanting or desiring a reunification solution, the wounds are to deep and we are just not willing to accommodate the other side. The current situation just backs up my argument and leaves only the option of accepting like me and saying right we accept that we cannot reunite as our views are to far apart so lets work out how to formalize what we have today where GCs and TCs can choose which part of Cyprus they want to live in accepting that it will be under the administration of either the TCs or GCs. Otherwise the sides will still be arguing well into the 22nd century with no results.

EU Entry is a national cause for Turkey, Turkish people are not moving away from it, they are frustrated because of the "sacrifices" that are needed but that's only temporary. Westernization is what kemalism is all about, and as long as kemalism lives in Turkey, so will the EU entry dream. The sooner the TCs realize this, the better it will be for them. Turkey WILL eventually give up the partition practices and if that happens before reunification the RoC will not settle with what she settles now

[Viewpoint]

Your over estimating the Turkish desire to become "European", I was in Turkey last week attending a conference and the majority of well educated Turks I spoke with thought that the EU was applying double standards and that their credibility was questionable, with or without the EU life goes on and Turkey at worst will have certain chapters relating to transport put on the shelf until a future date. I personally am not against Turkey aspiring to EU ideals and norms but I do not feel Turkey even after the changes necessary will be allowed to enter the EU as a full member. So she should realize this and continue to make changes taking into account that everything European is not always correct and applicable to a country as vast as Turkey with a kaleidoscope of cultures and beliefs.

The hard line approach Turkey has taken against the EU must confirm her commitment to the TRNC, against all odds she is adamantly sticking to her belief that without a comprehensive solution she will not recognize the GC run south.

[alexISS]

Your over estimating the Turkish desire to become "European", I was in Turkey last week attending a conference and the majority of well educated Turks I spoke with thought that the EU was applying double standards and that their credibility was questionable, with or without the EU life goes on and Turkey at worst will have certain chapters relating to transport put on the shelf until a future date.

Even well educated people can be frustrated. Turkey is asked to do nothing more than what was asked for from any other candidate country.

With or without the EU life goes on, but it will go on more smoothly WITH the EU. The people know this.

I personally am not against Turkey aspiring to EU ideals and norms but I do not feel Turkey even after the changes necessary will be allowed to enter the EU as a full member.

If Turkey changes, there is no excuse and no reason not to be accepted. But that's a big if. The EU public opinion is against Turkey's entry because Turkey as she is now is unacceptable. If the reforms complete succesfully, 2020's Turkey will have nothing in common with 2006's Turkey and the public opinion will change accordingly.

So she should realize this and continue to make changes taking into account that everything European is not always correct and applicable to a country as vast as Turkey with a kaleidoscope of cultures and beliefs.

Actually the European way is the only way for a multicultural country that wants to respect the "other" cultures that form its identity.

The hard line approach Turkey has taken against the EU must confirm her commitment to the TRNC, against all odds she is adamantly sticking to her belief that without a comprehensive solution she will not recognize the GC run south.

Then the honest thing for Turkey to do would be to voluntarily suspend talks, actively support and promote a solution to the problem and then revive the talks. Right now, Turkey asks to enter a bloc that includes a country she does not recognize, and the bloc asks Turkey to recognize it. What's so absurd in that? Turkey herself created that oxymoron, noone else.
Telling the EU that accepting Cyprus was a mistake is not so smart either, Cyprus belongs in Europe and the permission of Turkey was never a prerequisite

[Viewpoint]

alexISS

Even well educated people can be frustrated. Turkey is asked to do nothing more than what was asked for from any other candidate country.

Was any other country told to recognize a country they did not recognize?

The frustration does not only derive from opening ports but the fact that Turkey warned the EU of the dangers of allowing a divided Cyprus into the EU and the frustration it would cause not only in Turkey but the EU as well.
If there was no divided Cyprus in the EU today Turkey would not be facing the ports crisis today, many EU leaders and diplomats including Olli Rehn (Verhugen) have admitted that it was a mistake to let the "RoC" in without first resolving their problems.

With or without the EU life goes on, but it will go on more smoothly WITH the EU. The people know this.

But it still goes on, life does not stop because the EU accession talks break down, no one can use this as a threat to lever Turkey into doing what they want.

If Turkey changes, there is no excuse and no reason not to be accepted. But that's a big if. The EU public opinion is against Turkey's entry because Turkey as she is now is unacceptable. If the reforms complete succesfully, 2020's Turkey will have nothing in common with 2006's Turkey and the public opinion will change accordingly.

This I agree with but I still believe Turkey will never become a full member, the opt out clause will be mobilized to create a special partnership at best.

Actually the European way is the only way for a multicultural country that wants to respect the "other" cultures that form its identity.

How about the Canadian and Australian examples, they are not European yet have multicultural structures which live in harmony. Turkey can follow those good examples.

Then the honest thing for Turkey to do would be to voluntarily suspend talks,

I think this a distinct option for Turkey right now, if not totally partial suspension may be on the cards for those chapters which will include the transport issue.

actively support and promote a solution to the problem and then revive the talks.

I think she will freeze Cyprus issues until after a successful local elections cant see her doing anything to negatively effect the vote until after 2007.

Right now, Turkey asks to enter a bloc that includes a country she does not recognize, and the bloc asks Turkey to recognize it. What's so absurd in that? Turkey herself created that oxymoron, noone else.

Turkeys application was lodged well before the south and the EU knew the island was divided yet they chose to proceed, well as time progresses and problems continue to arise I'm sure many more will say is was a grave mistake allowing only one part of an island into the EU which is so small and has so much baggage with very little benefit to the overall wealth of the EU in contrast to potentially a country which could be the catalyst to maintaining EU perspective in the future, both with its natural resources, strategic location, religious balance, army and manpower.

Telling the EU that accepting Cyprus was a mistake is not so smart either, Cyprus belongs in Europe and the permission of Turkey was never a prerequisite

They don't have to be told they are now experiencing and will over the years look towards the GC south for many answers.

[alexISS]

Was any other country told to recognize a country they did not recognize?

No other country applied for EU membership while not recognising one of the EU countries. If Greece had said that she does not recognise Belgium, she would obviously not enter.

The frustration does not only derive from opening ports but the fact that Turkey warned the EU of the dangers of allowing a divided Cyprus into the EU and the frustration it would cause not only in Turkey but the EU as well.

If there was no divided Cyprus in the EU today Turkey would not be facing the ports crisis today, many EU leaders and diplomats including Olli Rehn (Verhugen) have admitted that it was a mistake to let the "RoC" in without first resolving their problems.

It would be unfair for Cyprus not to join the EU because she was the victim of an invasion. The RoC successfully completed all the negotiations chapters, the economy was strong and ready and the EU had no reason to say no. The fact that it was against Turkey's interests was, of course, not a reason at all. It was a diplomatic defeat that should had been dealt with differently than by whining about how wrong the EU was.

But it still goes on, life does not stop because the EU accession talks break down, no one can use this as a threat to lever Turkey into doing what they want.

Threatening, levering, cheating Turkey... that's the kind of phrasing that makes the Turkish diplomacy so inadequate. Nobody's threatening noone. Turkey applied for EU membership, no the other way around. If you want to join a club, you accept the rules or you don't join at all.

This I agree with but I still believe Turkey will never become a full member, the opt out clause will be mobilized to create a special partnership at best.

Turkey seems to be certain that the EU needs her more than she needs the EU, if that's true then she will certainly be accepted when the negotiations are over

How about the Canadian and Australian examples, they are not European yet have multicultural structures which live in harmony. Turkey can follow those good examples.

With "European" I meant western values. Canada and Australia are as European in spirit as Europe is.

Turkeys application was lodged well before the south and the EU knew the island was divided yet they chose to proceed, well as time progresses and problems continue to arise I'm sure many more will say is was a grave mistake allowing only one part of an island into the EU which is so small and has so much baggage with very little benefit to the overall wealth of the EU in contrast to potentially a country which could be the catalyst to maintaining EU perspective in the future, both with its natural resources, strategic location, religious balance, army and manpower.

The EU is more than just an Economical Union. The purpose of the EU is not to separate the Christians from the Muslims (another turkish diplomacy "foul"), the rich from the poor or the strong from the weak. The EU's purpose is to bring equality and prosperity to all it's members, to bring cultures together and to inspire the people for a better future. In such a union, there's no room for the "70 million vs 6 hundred thousand" arguments that Turkey so foolishly still uses. Who gives a f*ck about "strategic location", that's such an anachronistic way of thinking...

They don't have to be told they are now experiencing and will over the years look towards the GC south for many answers.

Yes, more self-comforting thoughts... Cyprus is in, just deal with it and try to take advantage of the leverage you have left: Greek Cypriot desire for reunification, because this too is starting to fade away...

[Viewpoint]

alexISS

No other country applied for EU membership while not recognising one of the EU countries. If Greece had said that she does not recognise Belgium, she would obviously not enter.

No other country has been put in Turkeys position, she applied for membership well before the south and then the EU discarded Turkeys concerns and admitted an island that was divided and had disputes with another country also trying to enter the EU. imho to fair to both candidates the EU should have acted neutrally and kept the south and Turkey on hold until a solution was found, allowing one side in has given the south an advantage which we see it using on Turkey at every turn.

It would be unfair for Cyprus not to join the EU because she was the victim of an invasion.

You know full well why the south joined the EU to obtain the leverage it is using today. The Eu has brought the south no real economical gain just a lot of red tape and laws and regulations which she is forced to implement.
The south should never have been allowed in until she found a solution this was clearly felt in the run up to the referendum the annan plan was not negotiated in good faith and ran second to the we can get a better deal if we enter the EU and force Turkey to do what we want mentality.

The fact that it was against Turkey's interests was, of course, not a reason at all. It was a diplomatic defeat that should had been dealt with differently than by whining about how wrong the EU was.

A big defeat which Turkey is trying to overcome right now, it may even cost her an early departure from the EU path.

Threatening, levering, cheating Turkey... that's the kind of phrasing that makes the Turkish diplomacy so inadequate. Nobody's threatening noone. Turkey applied for EU membership, no the other way around. If you want to join a club, you accept the rules or you don't join at all.

You are right, if the rules are the same for every candidate country then I agree but if those rules oppose or threaten a countries internal political stance then that's where she has to take a decision of which route to take and the consequences involved. obviously she is veering more towards her own policy on Cyprus and will not yield until a comprehensive solution is found or ports are opened both in Turkey and the TRNC at the same time. (as promised by the EU).

Turkey seems to be certain that the EU needs her more than she needs the EU, if that's true then she will certainly be accepted when the negotiations are over

I just don't see it at this time.

The EU is more than just an Economical Union. The purpose of the EU is not to separate the Christians from the Muslims (another turkish diplomacy "foul"), the rich from the poor or the strong from the weak. The EU's purpose is to bring equality and prosperity to all it's members, to bring cultures together and to inspire the people for a better future

The prime example being the divided island of Cyprus, how hypocritical.

In such a union, there's no room for the "70 million vs 6 hundred thousand" arguments that Turkey so foolishly still uses. Who gives a f*ck about "strategic location", that's such an anachronistic way of thinking...

Its all about economics and benefits, if it weren't for Greece twisting the EUs arm you would never have gotten in or nor would the other 9 countries. Its OK when you guys do it but when it come to Turkey is another issue, double standards are rife in the EU.

The strategic location the sense of acting as a bridge between civilizations and cultures, and example to the Islamic nations.

Yes, more self-comforting thoughts... Cyprus is in, just deal with it and try to take advantage of the leverage you have left: Greek Cypriot desire for reunification, because this too is starting to fade away...

Give it another 10 years and it will be all gone and you will be asking for agreed division.

[alexISS]

No other country has been put in Turkeys position, she applied for membership well before the south and then the EU discarded Turkeys concerns and admitted an island that was divided and had disputes with another country also trying to enter the EU. imho to fair to both candidates the EU should have acted neutrally and kept the south and Turkey on hold until a solution was found, allowing one side in has given the south an advantage which we see it using on Turkey at every turn.

Turkey's application was vetoed by Greece as I'm sure you remember. Cyprus's application was accepted first so, Cyprus was first.

Why should the EU act neutral when the UN and the whole world (minus Turkey) does not? The occupation of Northern Cyprus is just that, occupation. EU neutrality would equal to EU acceptance of the Turkish "peaceful operation" mumbo jumbo. In EU eyes, the Cyprus problem was -and is- a problem of illegal occupation, that's why the EU did the right thing and accepted Cyprus anyway.

You know full well why the south joined the EU to obtain the leverage it is using today.

No I don't know that, because it's not true. Cyprus stepped in a European unification project. That's MUCH more than leverage and money as I said before. Turkey may be in it for the money, but that's not the EU's purpose, you have to understand this

The south should never have been allowed in until she found a solution this was clearly felt in the run up to the referendum the annan plan was not negotiated in good faith and ran second to the we can get a better deal if we enter the EU and force Turkey to do what we want mentality.

People in Cyprus were shocked to see Denktash, a 30-year dictator being sacked in an instant because of Turkey's EU aspirations. After 30 years of "partition is solution" you expected the GCs to accept the first plan given to them? Even Turkey never thought so.

The prime example being the divided island of Cyprus, how hypocritical.

Why hypocritical?? If it weren't for the EU, Turkey would still maintain the "problem solved" policy, now we're getting somewhere

Its all about economics and benefits, if it weren't for Greece twisting the EUs arm you would never have gotten in or nor would the other 9 countries. Its OK when you guys do it but when it come to Turkey is another issue, double standards are rife in the EU.

What for others is called solidarity, for you is called arm twisting. That, too, is to be expected.
Double standards, anti-Turkism, islam, all cheap excuses Turkey uses to conceal her own inadequacy.
And for the record, I am not a Cypriot.

The strategic location the sense of acting as a bridge between civilizations and cultures, and example to the Islamic nations.

Why does Turkey insist on "selling" itself using such arguments?
Right now Turkey belongs to the civilizations on the other side of the bridge, so Greece can be that bridge, no problem

Give it another 10 years and it will be all gone and you will be asking for agreed division.

I know that. But in 10 years you will be asking for unification...

[Viewpoint]

alexISS

Turkey's application was vetoed by Greece as I'm sure you remember. Cyprus's application was accepted first so, Cyprus was first.

Turkey has been trying to enter the EU for over 40 years, so it was Turkey that knocked on the door first not the south. But see it how you like that's your privilege.

Why should the EU act neutral when the UN and the whole world (minus Turkey) does not? The occupation of Northern Cyprus is just that, occupation. EU neutrality would equal to EU acceptance of the Turkish "peaceful operation" mumbo jumbo. In EU eyes, the Cyprus problem was -and is- a problem of illegal occupation, that's why the EU did the right thing and accepted Cyprus anyway.

Then the EU can just play with this hot potato until it burns their hands just like the UN who have near enough washed their hands of the Cyprus problem since the rejection of the AP.

How can the EU make unbiased decisions when the south is a member and will push 101% for their own demands?

No I don't know that, because it's not true. Cyprus stepped in a European unification project. That's MUCH more than leverage and money as I said before. Turkey may be in it for the money, but that's not the EU's purpose, you have to understand this

This is the only reason you entered the EU to take the Cyprus platform onto another stage where you can get EU leverage, if you cannot see this you are blind, what other benefits have you gotten other than a headache of applying EU norms and the cost of updating many of your industries, please don't give the EU harmony and philosophy crap the GCs are no more European than the Arabs and they are part of the middle east. The Eu purpose is derived from strength in numbers and equality between all men, do you really believe a country like Poland, Estonia joined for the philosophy, its was purely Economical Greece should know this they are one of the biggest takers from the EU.

People in Cyprus were shocked to see Denktash, a 30-year dictator being sacked in an instant because of Turkey's EU aspirations. After 30 years of "partition is solution" you expected the GCs to accept the first plan given to them? Even Turkey never thought so

We voted him out, leaders come and leaders go we opted for change and a UN brokered comprehensive solution. What did the GC opt for a ex eoka leader , rejection of the Annan plan for EU entry and the European solution. This was the only plan ever put to the vote so we showed to the world who wants reunification via a plan endorsed by the majority of the world.

Why hypocritical?? If it weren't for the EU, Turkey would still maintain the "problem solved" policy, now we're getting somewhere

Getting somewhere using what? EU leverage thought u said that's not why u entered the EU. Contradicting yourself me thinks.

What for others is called solidarity, for you is called arm twisting. That, too, is to be expected.
Double standards, anti-Turkism, islam, all cheap excuses Turkey uses to conceal her own inadequacy.

You are not the one being subjected to the above criteria so of course you will churn out excuses but the fact remains that the EU is place where you can get your way if you have the means and Greece played the i will veto the 9 candidate nations if you do not let the divided country in called the "RoC"..the other name for it is blackmail.

And for the record, I am not a Cypriot.

What nationality are you? Ill guess Greek? Not a problem for me.

Why does Turkey insist on "selling" itself using such arguments?
Right now Turkey belongs to the civilizations on the other side of the bridge, so Greece can be that bridge, no problem

Turkey is the country which bridges east and west not just geographically but mentally as well, if you have never been to Turkey I suggest you do and see first hand the vast array of cultures and peoples that all live together that make Turkey such a fascinating and unusual country, with great potential.

I have been to Greece and although a very modern and developed country it can never substitute the place of a country as vast and diverse as Turkey. If you consider the Turkey of today on the other side of the bridge then my friend you are very short sighted as you should be considering a Turkey in 20 years time, how long did it take Greece to adapt? or Spain I think is was 12 years.

I know that. But in 10 years you will be asking for unification

Not at this rate the TC community is being alienated by the south and if the current trend continues the North will stay as is for many years to come.

[miltiades]

VP Wrote:
""""Turkeys application was lodged well before the south and the EU knew the island was divided yet they chose to proceed""""

The EU does not recognise that the island of Cyprus consists of two nations rather than one nation with 38 % of its land occupied by Turkey. The partitionists , amongst whom you are the protagonist , will insist that their Turkish created state unrecognised universally is the legitimate state in Cyprus !!
I know you will again refer me to what you stubbornly believe. There is no South or North but there is a universally recognised Cyprus which belongs to you and to me . I claim mine it is time that you claim yours too and tell your political leaders to get out of Turkeys nickers , allow Turkey to enter the EU for the sake of 70 million people and future Turkish generations. The EU needs Turkey as a full member , and it is Turkeys stubborn shortsighted behaviour that is damaging her prospects of continue discussions leading to full membership. Turkey can go nowhere on her own successfully.