Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

So it ends to be a game of power. How do you think your side can achieve power?

On the issue of the possible consequences do you have in mind any similar example where the one who lucks power managed to overcome its weakness? On the principles or based on legalities Turkey would not even be a candidate for the E.U just to give you an example where legitimacy, human rights etc. were not much of a help.

There are many examples. It doesn't require Cyprus to become a superpower and Turkey to lose all its power.
Take as an example the small Baltic states and Russia. Latvia has 30% Russian minority. Latvia didn't become a superpower, and Russia still has a lot of military power. Still Latvia is independent. A change in balance of power allowed this to happen, even if just 5 years before it would have been considered impossible by most.

This is just one example, there are many. How did Greece earned her independence from the mighty Ottoman empire for example?

Things change, and nobody should be so arrogant to believe that their current military power alone will allow them to commit crimes and illegalities in eternity.

It is acceptable that you will keep holding on the treaties, international law etc. but whether these are effective lets say after 30 years is highly questionable.

Above all, I cannot see the essential factors which are about to change the present balance of power.

No, nothing is about to change in a month or a year. However what will happen in 3 or 15 or 30 years nobody knows. What we have to do is to be ready, and to try to affect, to the degree we can, this change in the balance of power.

And whether that happens at some point I'm sure that legitimacy is the last you would like to put forward. That is because the one who holds the power does not care about legitimacy. And this is something you should know from the experience of the last 3 decades...

I don't agree. Sure, if you have a lot of power you can do whatever, like the Americans for example. However: 1) Cyprus will not became a superpower and 2) Having legality on your side makes things A LOT easier.

Take the example of Iraq:

After the invasion of Kuwait it was much easier to attack Iraq since in that case the superpower would enforce the UN resolutions and legality. Nobody in the world would dare to say to the super power that legality should not be enforced.

On the other hand, when the USA invaded Iraq the second time, they had to invent some excuses to do it, they didn't have legality on their side, they didn't have UN resolutions to enforce. They still did it, but it was much harder for them.

[Viewpoint]

No one is denying you the right to wait for that swing Piratis because that's all you can do is wait and collect all the legalities you want, it will not solve anything unless both sides agree.

Never forget that that swing does not always go the way you wish and you may find yourself begging for the Annan plan to be brought back, who knows it could swing that way.....

[lupusdiavoli]

Lets take your examplew Piratis one by one.

The Baltic States came to surface because of the collapse of the Soviet Union and the support of the West, mostly U.S. The collapse of the S.U had nothing to do with the efforts of the Baltics themselves.

So, "Greece earned her independence from the mighty Ottoman empire". It did that after several years of fighting and from what I know there are not many GC ready to jeopardize their way of life today. Further, if I recall from history the Greeks after the first years of struggle turn against each other! And at the end it was the help of the great powers of that era that gave them a new state. Do you remember the borders of that state? Peloponesse, some islands and the area around Attica! Is that the Greece you had in mind? But the true is that the creation of a new state was the result of the game power and the decisions made in Europe. Thus the creation of a small state in favour of Great Britain in order to control the eastern Mediteranean.

I have to admit that you r right that "What we have to do is to be ready, and to try to affect, to the degree we can, this change in the balance of power"... Certainly this sounds most vague, something without specific content. In essence it verifies the present weakness and the reality. This was my point from the start.

Any superpower through history can use the legitimacy if it is on its side. If not, it can simply use the legitimacy out of its power. Exactly as you've said. I said it before, reality creates law after time. And time is something that u have not. Don' t u know it?

You above all, since I perceive you are greek you should know this out of your history. the game power as well. But there are multiple readings of history even if that is your past, which I admit carries great pieces of wisdom. Though I think they belong to the past. From respect to History I shall say that you never know. But, History does not move alone.

[Piratis]

The Baltic States came to surface because of the collapse of the Soviet Union and the support of the West, mostly U.S. The collapse of the S.U had nothing to do with the efforts of the Baltics themselves.

You are mostly right. There is only one effort that the Baltics had to do: Not to accept the "realities" and to wait for the right time.

About Greece the situation is the same. Greece didn't become a superpower, just the balance of power changed. All the Greeks had to do during the 400 years of Ottoman rule was to maintain their identity and wait for the right time. If the Greeks said: "oh well, lets all become Muslims and start speaking Turkish to make our life easier", there would be no Greece today.

I have to admit that you r right that "What we have to do is to be ready, and to try to affect, to the degree we can, this change in the balance of power"... Certainly this sounds most vague, something without specific content. In essence it verifies the present weakness and the reality. This was my point from the start.

Pushing Turkey out of her EU accession is one such concrete measure and we can definitely help Europe to move in that direction.

Any superpower through history can use the legitimacy if it is on its side. If not, it can simply use the legitimacy out of its power. Exactly as you've said. I said it before, reality creates law after time. And time is something that u have not. Don' t u know it?

The illegality of the Turkish occupation can never be legalized. Not without our signature.

[humanist]

lupusdiavoli, firstly I like to thank you for your statement about "human". If we as humanity accepted each human as just that and respected each other the world would be a better place.

I also appreciated your debate in relation to reality vs legality and I have to say I fully agree.

Piratis whilst I hear claerly what you are saying nd on a level I agree. lupusdiavoli has a valid argument that goes beyond what we percieve to be reality, on a phylosophical level, he makes a point that would end any pain or suffering as it is perceived by anyone. I don't think he is just referring to the work that Greek Speaking Cypriots need to do but also the work that Turkish Speaking Cypriots, Britons, Turks Greeks, Lithuanians, etc etc etc, need to do both on individual level as well as a collective.

[humanist]

It apears to me that my Turksih Speaking compatriots, are more alligned with their so called mother country (Turkey) that are the Greek speaking Cypriots with Greece.

I'd like to offer this suggestion on the discussion board. If Turkey was concerned about the plight of Turksih speaking Cypriots would she not had pulled her troops out of Cyprus years ago so that the process for a unified Cyprus would have began years ago, rather than Turskih speaking Cypriots allowed to live in this oppressive regime they refer too as a rep[ublic when the world only recognises one republic of Cyprus that is EU State?

[Viewpoint]

It apears to me that my Turksih Speaking compatriots, are more alligned with their so called mother country (Turkey) that are the Greek speaking Cypriots with Greece.

I'd like to offer this suggestion on the discussion board. If Turkey was concerned about the plight of Turksih speaking Cypriots would she not had pulled her troops out of Cyprus years ago so that the process for a unified Cyprus would have began years ago, rather than Turskih speaking Cypriots allowed to live in this oppressive regime they refer too as a rep[ublic when the world only recognises one republic of Cyprus that is EU State?

Where do you get that impression more than 70% of the TCs want the army to remain until a comprehensive solution is found and even then they should be phased out over a period of time to ensure a smooth troublesome transition. The troops have served as an effective deterrent to even further killing and violence occurring this is proven by the fact that we have had no inter communal problems for more than 32 years, whereas before it was the opposite. Just pulling out troops is not a way to achieve a solution, we need to find the road map towards what we agree, if that is a unified dematerialized island then the troops will go. But suggesting we get rid of the Turkish Troops before we can agree a solution is ludicrous, why do you want to get rid of them? what have you got planned? are you willing to get rid of your own military structure? lead by example

[miltiades]

VP , Intercommunal violence erupted when the fanatics from both sides speared on by nationalistic propaganda turned one Cypriot against the other. The cancers that afflicted our nation , the nation of Cyprus , became aggressive and the ugly head of "motherland scatology " ensured that the Cypriots considered them selves just as a lot do now , as non Cypriots. When the ties with foreign nations served to blind the realities and demoted our national identities then the conflict begun. For years and years we lived amongst each other in peace , the 32 years you keep mentioning is not a profound experience in peaceful co existence with the presence of some 40 thousand occupation troops, but the 32 plus years prior to the conflict , are the years you and the likes of you ought to reflect upon. Yes Sir we lived in peace together in each others villages and towns. How many T/Cs or G/Cs were killed due to intercommunal conflict prior to the 50s . NONE , NONE NONE.

[Viewpoint]

This is like saying I loved my wife once. The fact that you beat and raped her has changed everything, all you have to say in your defence is but don't forget we lived happily when we first got married. Do you think that wife should trust her husband again without any safeguards to ensure he will not try to keep her under lock and key, beating her whenever he wishes. The actions of the past have shaped our future, we have to learn from our mistakes and take steps that will ensure that the wife is never beaten or degrading ever again. It is this formula that is eluding us or it is just better to let the couple seperate than force a marriage?.

[humanist]

viewpoint the difference is that we consider you part of us the Cypriot people of Cyprus however you want to separate yourselves and see us as the other.

If Cyprus has a military structure it is for the protection of all Cypriots. Anyway I would welcome any demilitarisation of Cyprus. Certainly! I beleive Cyprus ought to become the Switzerland of the mediteranian.

But that will never happen because of its strategic position and the like of Britain and the US through its puppets such as Turkey will never allow it.

The problem is that each day that goes by that Cyprus is separated and therefore its people the bigger the gap will be, to bring the people together.