Cyprus-Forum.com

[Alexis]

I gave a simple answer to a simple person and of course Alexis these matters will all be negotiated and a balance struck but this in the long run will avoid GCs having to share power with TCs, providing them with the continuation of the Gc state for GCs and avoid TC fearing GC domination and discrimination and prove them with recognition. We have been divided for 32 years and the 2 countries exist so really the mechanisms are in place, the only real big issue would be the amount of land to be returned and the economical impact it will have on both countries.

Maybe its simpler than you think...

Perhaps it's because I'm so simple that I cannot understand the simplicity of this.

Apologies if I caused offense by calling you naive, it wasn't you personally I was directing that remark at but your argument that partition would be a simple solution. Partition as it stands now would of course be simple (we don't have to do anything at all), it is agreed partition which I am sceptical about, otherwise you are correct that mechanisms do exist currentl, I just think that even the one big issue of how much (and which) land is returned will create a dead-lock that will be too difficult to overcome.

[Viewpoint]

Alexis the polls on the GC side reveal that 40% of your population would prefer partition add to this those refugees that would return if land was returned plus compensation and you will end up with over 50%.

If we today agreed the current land split the 2 countries could continue as they do now functions side by without any problems. Division in my opinion will be problematic to negotiate at the outset but in the long run without any ties the problem will once and for all be solved. With reunification you run the risk of things going wrong and one side trying to dominate the other and pursue hidden agendas to assimilate one population into the other.

The current stubbornness on both sides maintains the status quo where we stay divided with or without recognition, the longer this goes on the more difficult it will be to reverse so those who wants reunification should pursue measures to encourage the other side to want reunification otherwise current policies show that the TC view just like the GCs is rapidly moving towards permanent division.

[Alexis]

If we today agreed the current land split the 2 countries could continue as they do now functions side by without any problems. Division in my opinion will be problematic to negotiate at the outset but in the long run without any ties the problem will once and for all be solved.

In the longrun I agree partition is the less 'risky' option and will require less interaction between the communities in the longterm. It is overcoming this initial barrier to everyone's satisfaction that I do not believe will ever happen. Agreeing to a land split in a united country is to a certain extent academic (depending on the details), I for one would not give a monkeys how we split the land in a federal nation in which I as a GC and you as a TC would have freedom of residence (and voting at a local level) anywhere on the island (with perhaps some minor exceptions), it simply would not matter which zone's administration you lived in. Of course I would not envisage this situation as something that would happen overhnight rather something which we should aim for in the longterm. However, to get back on track I would care a hell of a lot more how we split the land if we are going to create two separate countries. If that is the case then I would completely back GC claims that they should get their fair share of Cyprus since we would be talking about a clean break between the two communities. This sounds like a hard line to take (especially for a moderate GC) but in reality it is not unreasonable for the GC community to demand this. So immediately I can see a crash happening in the negotiation process whereby the GC side would demand at least 80% of Cyprus (including perhaps coastline) and the TC community would demand much more than 20% for the obvious economic and humanitarian (more refugees) reasons that an 80:20 split would entail.
Remember that the majority of GCs that back partition do so with a caveat that the GC zone is somewhere in the region of 80%, this is just a fact but an important one in realising that partition is not necessarily the easy option.

[Viewpoint]

As you rightly state a number of GCs could return to live in the TRNC and this would mean that this figure which has been negotiated many times would be in the region of 25/27%. lets say for the sake of an end to the Cyprus problem we agree this figure, then we can bring in experts to workout exactly the maximum number of refugees will be allowed to return if certain areas are returned and also allow for economic viability.

The pill will be difficult to swallow at first but the end result will be full recovery. With reunification there will always be fears of the illness returning to plague our peoples who have always wanted just to live in peace.

Its obvious that GCs do not want to share political power equally with Tcs and TCs do not want live under GC rule, these 2 main factors will ensure that a solution to reunify will be near enough impossible to find which the last 32 years are testament to.

Time we all admitted that there is no perfect solution out there but a clean divorce is better than a messy marriage where both side carry to much baggage.

[Piratis]

Well, after all this discussion about partition I don't think there is any real reason to continue discussing with Viewpoint as it is clear what Viewpoint wants. (it was always clear to everybody but anyways).

So, lets talk about VPs "solution".

1) It requires that Greek Cypriots should accept that part of their country with 3500 years of GC history should become Turkish.

2) TCs are 18% and GCs the 82%.

So theoretically speaking, would you give us the 82% that is our fair share, plus another 5-6% as a compensation to accept that you can have your kind of solution and make part of Cyprus permanently Turkish? Don't offer us money, what we want is land.

So would you accept to keep 12% of land, and 12% of coastline and return the rest?

If you want to live in a Turkish state then go to Turkey. We would be glad to buy all your properties at double the market price, and you can then go buy nice luxury homes in Turkey. If you love your homeland too much to do such thing, then understand that we love our homeland of 3500 years as well, and that we are not going to give it up.

[MR-from-NG]

32 years, 320 years or 3200 years. Whats the big deal. If you can give it up for 32 you can give it up indefinitely. You re just being difficult.

The Annan plan is a good plan. Sign it and lets get on with our lives.

[Viewpoint]

Piratis

Well, after all this discussion about partition I don't think there is any real reason to continue discussing with Viewpoint as it is clear what Viewpoint wants. (it was always clear to everybody but anyways).

Your right to respond or not. Partition is also another form of solution, one which we are closer to than ever and for which the support for is gathering momentum.

1) It requires that Greek Cypriots should accept that part of their country with 3500 years of GC history should become Turkish.

Turkish Cypriot, but seeing we are co-owners what wrong with that, you will have most of the island where we have been for 500 years. You can always visit and those that choose to reside in the TRNC may.

TCs are 18% and GCs the 82%.So theoretically speaking, would you give us the 82% that is our fair share, plus another 5-6% as a compensation to accept that you can have your kind of solution and make part of Cyprus permanently Turkish? Don't offer us money, what we want is land.

Is Wale's or Scotland's size in ratio the population count? or was it based on a series of wars with the British.

Compensation in this case will have to mean money not land for agreed division to work, you are being bloody minded for the sake of causing problems, is this one of your best attributes?

So would you accept to keep 12% of land, and 12% of coastline and return the rest?

If that is agreed and viable then yes I would agree, look at San Marino and Andorra they do very well without any coastline, I should do better.

If you want to live in a Turkish state then go to Turkey.

I am 100% Turkish Cypriot not a Turk from Turkey I'm going nowhere however much you repeat it and wish we TCs are here and will stay here, this is our home.

We would be glad to buy all your properties at double the market price, and you can then go buy nice luxury homes in Turkey

You know where you can put your money, its not very sunny there

If you love your homeland too much to do such thing, then understand that we love our homeland of 3500 years as well, and that we are not going to give it up.

I'm not telling you to go live in another country like you do me, I'm asking that you share whats both of ours so that we may all continue to live peacefully.

[Piratis]

Viewpoint, you are not asking to share Cyprus, you are asking to split Cyprus. The homeland of people of Kerinia, Morfou, Rizokarposo etc is their towns and villages.

You want a "solution" via the means of ethnic cleansing.

Is Wale's or Scotland's size in ratio the population count? or was it based on a series of wars with the British.

I don't know. If it was based on a series of wars are you suggesting that we should also have a series of wars? Because if you want to gain on our loss thats exactly what we will have.

Compensation in this case will have to mean money not land for agreed division to work, you are being bloody minded for the sake of causing problems, is this one of your best attributes?

And in what way will you determine how much the money would that be?
There are some island rocks in Aegean that nobody would ever want to live on. Still Greece and Turkey almost had a war over them. Whats the value of those island rocks according to you?

This is not property we are talking about. Property is sold from one person to another within the same country. This is not what you are asking from RoC.

If that is agreed and viable then yes I would agree

Well, decide and if you ever want to keep the 12% and return the rest then come and tell us and we will think about it.

You know where you can put your money, its not very sunny there

The same goes for you. So money discussion is over here I guess.

[andri_cy]

Piratis,
You turned me, a peace loving person, a man with love and respect for his fellow man hate the Greeks. You alone are responsible for the hate I feel for your race. I hope you are proud of yourself for this achievement.

I can see from the above, that peace has not reached Cyprus yet.!!!

Mrfromng, it is in every person to hate another, whether he or she is from your own race or from another. You have every right to hate Piratis from what he writes that you disagree with, as hard as it is for me to understand, to be able to hate someone that you have not met or this person have not done anything to you directly, but solely on what he writes, that you do not like, but to hate the whole Greek race is beyond my comprehension.

I'm sorry to say this to a fellow Turkish Cypriot who has suffered similar unpleasant childhood as myself in 1963-64, but this makes you a racist at the highest level, when you make such statements. The truth is, from what I have read from your past posts, that you're not a racist, but a person who loses control when getting angry at one person, even hating that persons remarks, makes a giant leap in making a stupid remarks, as you made above.

I can only think of one way to take that "racist" statement back, and that is to ask for forgiveness from those who have read it. I hate to think what went through Miltiades's mind, a person that you have interacted with recently, who spoke very positive of you or Andri_cy, that you wanted to meet in the States couple of months ago.

To hate a race is to hate yourself, and I do not think, that you hate yourself. I'll leave it with you, to think it over.

Kikapu, some of us strive to not have confrontations. We claim we are peace loving and we mean it. I have had members of my family killed, raped and displaced in 1974 but I have not let that make me hate a whole race, let alone just the words of someone I have not met. A lot of times, posts of some of our TC friends I do not agree with a lot I disagree with passion, but to say I hate them for what they typed is a stretch. I do not even get mad. They are people and are entitled to their opinion whether I think it is right or wrong.
Unfortunately, This is not the first time mrfromng has attacked the whole of GCs. Last time he said he typed all that in the heat of the moment and he apologized. I did decide everyone deserves the benefit of a doubt. But, when it happens again, when someone says he hates the whole race of which I am part of, it is hard for me to not take it personally. It is hard for me to believe that if you are a fair minded peace loving person, someone's writings can turn you 180 degrees into a person that hates a whole race. I am deeply disappointed and hurt that someone can even think about saying they hate me when they do not know me. I find that prejudicial and racist.

[zan]

Piratis wrote:

Well, decide and if you ever want to keep the 12% and return the rest then come and tell us and we will think about it.

I tell you what. You recognise us and then tell us how much you want back and we will think about it. I feel we are gaining your trust?


And as you are talking about cost, how much will you give me for my lost childhood when I was chased out of Cyprus by your incompetent government in 1964. How about my parents and my other five siblings, what is the cost of their lost livelihoods. Do I not count as a displaced person. You are wrong Piratis, very wrong with your attitude and your claims to the whole of Cyprus. All this rubbish about equality in Europe means nothing when your lot were able to return and make a good living and we were not and are well behind in terms of equity. I have no idea what you think you are achieving in your propaganda posts but on the ground t amounts to nothing. The TCs are living the life every day and know what is what. The others can read and are doing so and are finding out the truth. The real truth not your truth.