Cyprus-Forum.com

[stuballstu]

stuballstu, there is no question about Papadopoulos being an EOKA-B member as he was in the exact opposite camp, of Makarios (EOKA-B hated Makarios and tried to kill him).

I am not aware of this message to the Americans that you talk about. Can you give your source please? If such thing existed it would be in the lines of "if they attack us, then we will attack them". Still that was just theoretical, as in practice the ethnic cleansings were committed by the Turks against us. However for some reason what matters for you is some "message" than the criminal actions.

Piratis it was in the book written by the then American Consular General on his retirement. I have to disagree with your "if they attack us, we will attack them" theory. Why would a government minister who ironically is now president, threaten to inhialate some of its own citizens? These people are Cypriots not Turks. What matters to me is the fact that you have a president who quite frankly doesn't give a shit about some of his own citizens and in fact threatened to inhialate them in 45 mins. Doesnt that also matter to you?

Quote:
I never said proposing constitutional change was un-democratic. What i said was given their democratic rights, which you say is a fundamental right for all Cypriots, the TC's did not want to make the proposed changes. That was their democratic right. The result of which has been no TC representation within the parliament.


Those changes, which were very fair by the way, were never implemented! So nobody overwrote the right of TCs to block those changes. So whats your point?

As you say every Cypriot has a democtratic right. The democratic rights of the TC's was to say no to these changes. Nobody overwrote their rights but the result is no TC is was in parliament.

stuballstu, the Cyprus problem is not new. If the Cyprus problem was going to be solved by having the GC leader making offers and acting super friendly, then the Cyprus problem would have been solved when Vasiliou was a president. Unfortunately TCs instead of making similar moves they kept asking for more and more.

Therefore Papadopulos has (correctly) abandoned the "good boy" polcies that led us nowhere, and he is now concentrating on things that matter. Either mehmet likes it or not, the unfortunate truth is that Turkey is taking the decisions and not the TCs. The TC leadership is nothing more than Ankaras puppets. Therefore Papadopoulos policy is to make the occupation of Cyprus as costly to Turkey as possible and at the same time limit any benefits Turkey or the TCs can have from illegaly occupying our land.

Just think of it: When is everybody rushing to solve the Cyprus problem? When GCs were nice making ofers and accepting almost anything that was asked from them? Or when the occupation of Cyprus becomes an obstacle and a huge problem for Turkey?

The political climate has changed since Vasilou was president. Why shouldnt the GC politicians be "super friendly" to their own citizens, the TC's. Yeah Papadopolous is concentrating on things that matter. He may be up the creek without a paddle shortly if Turkey refuse to open there ports to GC's and the EU talks are suspended. What is the plan B or is this the plan B after the 2004 referendum?

We have been through this before TC's do not illegally occupy anything. They are legally part owners in the whole of Cyprus and ROC citizens. You have to clearly differentiate between Turkey and Turkish Cypriots they are not the same.

No one has ever rushed around to solve the Cyprus problem that why its went on for so long!!!

I would be interested to hear what "nice offers" the ROC has made to TC's. Give some examples of these.

Mehmet wrote

The only purpose for some on this site is not to reach out toTurkish Cypriots with the hand of friendship but to try and divide us so they can weaken us. The stupidity of those who try to back Turkey onto a corner seems to have no limits. Let Papadopoulos see what Turkey will do if it gives up on EU, it will say fuck you to RoC, may close border again and no doubt cause Turkey to go through another phase of nationalism.

Mehmet unfortunately you may be right. It would be disasterous for Cyprus if that happened and send the Cyprus problem back to the 1990's.

[mehmet]

''the unfortunate truth is that Turkey is taking the decisions and not the TCs''

Between the warm embrace of the Turkish state and the warm embrace of the Republic of Cyprus most Turkish Cypriots would take their chances with Turkey. Especially under the current leadership of RoC.

[Piratis]

Piratis you are purposefully tip toeing around my question and avoiding answering. The above picture you paint of democracy and human rights harmony in a united Cyprus is all well and good but the important issue is how will we run the show?

I answered many times Viewpoint. We will "run the show" in the same way that is is run in any other EU country. I even told you that you can choose the system of ANY other Eu country. I am not asking for a system that is designed to fit our needs and harm yours (this is what you do). I simply accept the democratic system as it exists in any other EU country.
What more do you want me to tell you about the "how"? Copy and paste you the constitution of the UK or Spain here?

If we go by majority rule then the Tcs with a ratio of 20 to 80 will have minimal to no chance of entering the government or it will be left to chance with no representation for us.

And as I said many times since I understand this concern of yours I accept that TCs will have a guaranteed proportional representation at all government levels (with ministers and everything), and 1 president every 5.
If you accepted unity this should have been more than satisfactory for you. But we all know that what you want is partition.

History tells us that GC domination of the whole island does not produce the democratic country you seem to think it will.

There was never a GC domination of the whole island. You are again trying to demonize GCs based on a single decade, and you forget that the occupation is going on for 3 times as much time, and that the Turks were the ones to dominate the whole island for 30 times as much time with terrible results.
What I am talking about is Cyprus dominated by Cypriots, not GCs. I told you above that TCs will have proportional representation in Government and 1 every 5 presidents and you keep talking about "GC domination". Why are you wasting my time Viewpoint if you will just repeat the excuses why you want illegality and partition without even listening what I say?

This is to big a risk for TCs to take as it would mean that you could administer these universal principles like Russia or Switzerland, do you see the difference?

I talked about EU countries, not Russia, and I even said that YOU can choose the system of any EU country for Cyprus, not me. Again, you just repeat excuses without listening.

Its this balance that has to be addressed ensuring both states cannot hinder or impose its will on the other. Why is this so difficult to understand?

Because Viewpoint in single countries you don't have one side imposing its will on another, because there are no such "sides". What you have is equal citizens, that all together decide in democratic ways. TCs will be able to proportionately affect the direction that the country is taken by 1) Their votes, 2) Their ministers and other governmental employees (their position will be guaranteed) and with the 1 every 5 presidents that they will have.

I am talking about a single country made by Cypriots but at the same time a system that will guarantee the representation of TCs so to alleviate any justified concerns that you can have.

What you are talking about are two sides each one separate that will just be associated in some way and have the label "united", while in effect it will be the partition you always ask for.
The relationship between GCs and TCs that you want is NOT one of a single country, as it exists in all other countries, but more like the relationship of say France with Spain within the European Union. France and Span might belong to the same Union, but that doesn't mean they are one country.

Viewpoint, I think it is time for you to stop wasting our time here and admit that you would accept nothing short than partition. You admitted this on several occasions but then you are trying to hide the fact again and pretend that you are flexible, while in fact you are not. I do not accept partition, you do not accept unity. So whats the point of discussing any further?

[Piratis]

Piratis it was in the book written by the then American Consular General on his retirement. I have to disagree with your "if they attack us, we will attack them" theory. Why would a government minister who ironically is now president, threaten to inhialate some of its own citizens? These people are Cypriots not Turks. What matters to me is the fact that you have a president who quite frankly doesn't give a shit about some of his own citizens and in fact threatened to inhialate them in 45 mins. Doesnt that also matter to you?

Did you read that book, or you just got the quote from a Turkish propaganda website?

During that time there was a conflict between GCs and TCs. If such thing was said, it is obvious that it was a warning that GCs would retaliate in case the Turks invaded. Just look at how many threads like that the Turks make. For them, if our people even try to go back to their homes it is a reason good enough to kill them. (like they did with Isaak and Solomou). But of course you have nothing to say about that.

Papadopoulos got elected with 2% difference. If TCs do not like him for any reason (justified or unjustified) they have the power to stop him from getting re-elected. All they have to do is to register to vote in next elections, even before the Cyprus problem is solved.

Papadopoulos is a president only for a couple of years. If he is an obstacle of any kind for the solution, then why the problem was not solved during the previous 30 years? The Turks just found one more lame excuse to try to excuse the occupation and illegalities.

As you say every Cypriot has a democtratic right. The democratic rights of the TC's was to say no to these changes. Nobody overwrote their rights but the result is no TC is was in parliament.

That was their own decision. You accuse GCs about enosis, but (not) surprisingly you forget that many TCs, including their leadership, were trying for partition and many of their actions had partition as their aim.

The political climate has changed since Vasilou was president.

The Turkish policies remain exactly the same regarding the Cyprus Problem.

Why shouldnt the GC politicians be "super friendly" to their own citizens, the TC's.

To the TCs they are. TCs can receive free health care and many other benefits from RoC even though they pay no taxes to RoC nor they fulfill any of their liabilities towards RoC.
However I have personally proposed measures that will help RoC to distinguish between the loyal to RoC TCs and those that are trying to harm RoC with illegal practices, and threat them accordingly. I hope RoC will make this move soon.

We have been through this before TC's do not illegally occupy anything.

Unfortunately this is not true. TCs have accepted (and many support) the stealing of our properties and many of them accepted to receive fake title deeds for own properties and then they even proceeded to sell them to foreigners.

No one has ever rushed around to solve the Cyprus problem that why its went on for so long!!!

I am afraid you are forgetting what happened a bit before Cyprus had entered the EU. In fact our side had asked for a bit more time for negotiations but everybody was rushing to close the Cyprus problem before our accession.

I would be interested to hear what "nice offers" the ROC has made to TC's. Give some examples of these.

RoC all this years had made many huge compromises, starting from the acceptance for BBF, acceptance that some settlers would stay, acceptance that the northern state that would be controlled by TCs would be more than 18% (disproportional in TCs favor) and many more things that we were not obligated to make. Unfortunately there was no response sine the Turkish side didn't even accept to do the things that were obligated, like the respect of our human rights.

Mehmet unfortunately you may be right. It would be disasterous for Cyprus if that happened and send the Cyprus problem back to the 1990's.

There is no difference between the 1990s and today in regards to the Cyprus problem. The occupation is there, the troops are there, our refugees are still not in their homes. Everything is the same for us.

Who will be sent into the 90s will be the Turkish economy.

We have nothing additional to lose, as they illegally keep everything they can already with no sign from their side that they will change in any way.
On the other hand Turkey has A LOT to lose, or maybe you think all their efforts all these years were just for fun?

[Viewpoint]

Piratis

I answered many times Viewpoint. We will "run the show" in the same way that is is run in any other EU country. I even told you that you can choose the system of ANY other Eu country. I am not asking for a system that is designed to fit our needs and harm yours (this is what you do). I simply accept the democratic system as it exists in any other EU country.
What more do you want me to tell you about the "how"? Copy and paste you the constitution of the UK or Spain here?

But we are not Spain or the UK...we are divided and have been for 32 years.

And as I said many times since I understand this concern of yours I accept that TCs will have a guaranteed proportional representation at all government levels (with ministers and everything), and 1 president every 5.
If you accepted unity this should have been more than satisfactory for you. But we all know that what you want is partition.

aren't you really contradicting yourself in the above statements?

on the one hand u say take UK example on the other you say you are willing to allow differences, which is what I am asking for, its those differences which we are unable to agree.

Proportional representation is not a problem for many TCs it the effect and impact they can have on the running of the country that is important, if they are just there to make up the numbers then whats the point?

There was never a GC domination of the whole island. You are again trying to demonize GCs based on a single decade, and you forget that the occupation is going on for 3 times as much time, and that the Turks were the ones to dominate the whole island for 30 times as much time with terrible results.

May I remind you the only time we were able to rule ourselves was in 1960 and from 1963 onwards you had and have to date a GC run state which does not instill a great deal of confidence in Tcs when referring to GC administering human rights and democracy when it comes to TCs.

What I am talking about is Cyprus dominated by Cypriots, not GCs. I told you above that TCs will have proportional representation in Government and 1 every 5 presidents and you keep talking about "GC domination". Why are you wasting my time Viewpoint if you will just repeat the excuses why you want illegality and partition without even listening what I say?

The we are all "Cypriots" theory cannot develop in one night is has to grow over many years with trust and understanding but obviously you do not posses those attributes as you see discussion as a clear waste of time. My excuses has you put them are my concerns and as long as you try to brush them under the carpet and ignore they will not go away they get worse as your actions confirms that in a united Cyprus your will display this attitude and brush us aside labelling our concerns and fears excuses.

I talked about EU countries, not Russia, and I even said that YOU can choose the system of any EU country for Cyprus, not me. Again, you just repeat excuses without listening.

I gave you the extreme example to express my point that there are many shades of administered democracy go to Poland or Estonia and compare their standards with that of Holland, totally different but all are in the EU.

Because Viewpoint in single countries you don't have one side imposing its will on another, because there are no such "sides". What you have is equal citizens, that all together decide in democratic ways. TCs will be able to proportionately affect the direction that the country is taken by 1) Their votes, 2) Their ministers and other governmental employees (their position will be guaranteed) and with the 1 every 5 presidents that they will have.

With a 8/2 ratio and a fanatical GC population that is allergic towards anything Turkish we will not be able to get a look in and you would have reduced us to the status of Indians living in the UK who are not indigenous to that country as we are to Cyprus.

Aren't you again contradicting your own argument and agreeing with me that we should have a balance between our communities to ensure one does not dominate the other?

I am talking about a single country made by Cypriots but at the same time a system that will guarantee the representation of TCs so to alleviate any justified concerns that you can have.

This we can agree to and goes in the face of your argument that we should take other EU models as is, you admit that we need a balance which is what I am arguing for yet you adamantly refuse to see this. Its this balance that we are trying to find and is so important inn finding solution which has eluded us for more that 32 years.

Viewpoint, I think it is time for you to stop wasting our time here and admit that you would accept nothing short than partition. You admitted this on several occasions but then you are trying to hide the fact again and pretend that you are flexible, while in fact you are not. I do not accept partition, you do not accept unity. So whats the point of discussing any further?

I have never hidden my belief that partition is the only alternative we can all agree on as we are unable to agree .0001% on a united Cyprus. That's why I am here to question this belief which you time and time again reinforce and do nothing to alleviate. If we do not discuss our concerns then how can we overcome them, if we turn our backs or try to silence then other side then how can we understand their viewpoint. It is your privilege not to respond to my posts but what will it resolve? nothing.

[pitsilos]

re piradis why do you waste your time with drop kicks. ataturk had to even show them how to dress and write in order to even resemble to a human being and you think you are going to put your point forward. these people are arrogant. they say they want to keep whats yours and they come back for more.

you know vp is a partiniosist right. ask him his solution for partition.

[Alexis]

I have never hidden my belief that partition is the only alternative we can all agree on as we are unable to agree .0001% on a united Cyprus.

hi vp,

Not having a go here but one of the main reasons I argue with you is that you continue to claim that 'agreeing' on partition will be easier than 'agreeing' on unification. What makes you think this is the case? From my experience it is quite the opposite, sure many TCs will agree to partition but I reckon even fewer GCs would agree to partition than agreed to the Annan Plan, so yet again what exactly is it that makes you think we can agree on partitionmore easily than unification? We have had partition for 32 years and haven't agreed on one thing except that the country should be unified (even Turkey says this now), your logic is simply defying any sense.

[Viewpoint]

Thats easy, we will let the international experts determine the land dispute issues dating back and establish the return of land % to the "RoC" which will reduce the TRNC to around 25/27% of the island and then we recognize you and you recognize us, end of story.

[Alexis]

Thats easy, we will let the international experts determine the land dispute issues dating back and establish the return of land % to the "RoC" which will reduce the TRNC to around 25/27% of the island and then we recognize you and you recognize us, end of story.

With all due respect you are being very naive here, you really think it will be as simple as that? The international community has pushed for a united Cyprus for 40 years and all it will take to solve the Cyprus Problem is exchange some land and then recognise each other?
In any case the way you talk it sounds as though there will be no negotiations regarding partition - you already have the plan in your head. What makes you think the GC community will accept the land exchange that you prescribe above, or for that matter what makes you think it will be prescribed in this way? Let's also remember the points some other members have said regarding the economic potential of the land. In 1974 you may have adopted only 37% of the land but this was also 70% of the economy at the time, so will you accept a 26% share of the economic potential? Also will you accept only 26% of the coastline (another economic commodity on our island)?
You simply have not thought all these things over. Partition will certainly not be an easy solution in my opinion.

[Viewpoint]

I gave a simple answer to a simple person and of course Alexis these matters will all be negotiated and a balance struck but this in the long run will avoid GCs having to share power with TCs, providing them with the continuation of the Gc state for GCs and avoid TC fearing GC domination and discrimination and prove them with recognition. We have been divided for 32 years and the 2 countries exist so really the mechanisms are in place, the only real big issue would be the amount of land to be returned and the economical impact it will have on both countries.

Maybe its simpler than you think...