Cyprus-Forum.com

[cannedmoose]

Is it not true that a lot of E.U leaders are still peeved at tassos and his back stabbing them with the annan plan...

I think a confirmation that many EU leaders are still slightly annoyed at Tassos came with the group photo in Brussels. While they were waiting around, hardly anyone wanted to speak to him and when it came to the photo itself, there was a marked attempt by all the other leaders not to have to stand next to him... great job at representing Cyprus in Europe Tassos!

[Piratis]

His job in not to find a nice place to stand in group photos. His job is to protect the interests of Republic of Cyprus, and thats what he is trying to do. Others (e.g. Vasiliou) are more interested for their personal relationships, their glamorous dinners and high class gatherings. We are very pleased that Papadopoulos puts his people above all these. If Vasiliou or Cleredes were our president, they would have simply traded the interests of Cyprus for their own personal relationships. (like they have done in the past)

[mehmet]

it's true that who he stands next to is not that important. perhaps he thinks his diplomacy since he became President has helped Cyprus. Where is this European solution coming from? If he was smart he would be able to capitalise on the anti-Turkish and anti-Muslim feeling in many European countries. He might at least have some European leaders even if they are from Luxumbourg or Malta if not from Germany or France who are prepared to publicly voice support for him. Sometimes when you look in a dirty pond you can't see your own reflection. Sometimes you imagine a beautiful woman is staring back at you.

[brother]

piratis the reason E.U leaders are peeved at tassos was because ROC leaders gave them assurances that a 'yes' vote would come from the GC camp so they ensured that cyprus was allowed into the E.U before solution and the referandum, but when the time came he went on tv sobbed like a baby and urged a 'no' vote hence they knew he had back stabbed them.

Now the issue is not wether what he done was right for cyprus but the fact they(EU) were duped so now he is the leper of the E.U family.

You might think 'so what', but how can he be part of a family when noone trusts or believes you and when they look or talk to you they are thinking 'thats the liar who stitched me up'.

[Piratis]

First of all Papadopoulos NEVER gave any promises that he would accept just about any solution plan that was given to him. So he didn't lie, and he didn't stub anybody. Who stub us in the back are the "UN", that went against their own resolutions and principles to propose a "solution" that would serve the American, British and Turkish interests.

Second, the achievements of Papadopoulos can be seen today: If we had said "yes", today Cyprus would be officially partitioned, we would be second category EU citizens, no democracy would have existed in Cyprus, and Turkey wouldn't face Cyprus in front of her in her EU route.

Thanks to Papadopoulos we avoided all those negative things, and today Turkey faces the problem she tried to avoid by tricking us to accept the Annan partition plan.

[erolz]

and he didn't stub anybody.

In the political sense it really does not matter if he did or did not 'snub' anybody, all that matters is if anybody feels that his actions where a snub or not. It is patently clear (to me at least) that many (power centers) in the EU did _feel_ a great sense of disapointment at his personal plea to the GC people to reject the plan, with some senior EU representatives openly talking (to the press) of feeling disapointed, let down and even betrayed by this act of his. It really does not matter if they are right or justifed in feeling this way. If they feel it, they feel it.

Second, the achievements of Papadopoulos can be seen today: If we had said "yes", today Cyprus would be officially partitioned, we would be second category EU citizens, no democracy would have existed in Cyprus, and Turkey wouldn't face Cyprus in front of her in her EU route.

Personaly I am not sure what his 'achievments' have been to date for Cypriots of either side. Unless you consider it an achievment to have continued a 50 year dispute and maintained deadlock? To say that if the Annan plan had been accepted by both sides, there would have been no democracy in Cyprus today, is to me 'histironics'. You could argue that Cyprus today would be less democratic (than your own _personal_ view of what democracy means) than the RoC is now, but to say that there would be 'no democracy' is just 'extremist rehtoric'. Similarly to say that Cypriots would have been 2nd class citizens is also 'over dramatic' in my opinon. Many other (new) EU citizens have (phased) restrictions on total rights to free abode and employment in Europe. The EU is even talking about the possibility of _permanent_ restrictions in Turkey's case. The fact is if you define being a 2nd class citizen as being related to how free GC are to live and work in North Cyprus vs other EU citizens, then by rejecting the Annan plan you are MORE 2nd class citizens than if it had been accepted, because under the Annan plan some GC would have been able to live and work in the North but under current conditions none can. As to the 'maintaing' of Cyprus as a block on EU and Turkish aspirations to greater unity and harmony, this could only be considered an achievment by GC with an extremely parocial world view and that are still seeking the same maximal aims that the extreme GC have persued since 1960 and earlier. To anyone else the continuation of Cyprus being a block on these much larger and more significant (in global terms) issues is not an 'achievment' but an major problem, as I am reasonably confident that you will soon discover.

Thanks to Papadopoulos we avoided all those negative things, and today Turkey faces the problem she tried to avoid by tricking us to accept the Annan partition plan.

It's not just Turkey that faces these problems. The EU and the world (or at least their political leaderships) also consider this a problem. As for Turkey trying to 'trick' you into accepting the Annan plan (or your description of it as a 'partition plan'), you really should try considering how such statements look to anyone 'outside' the Cyprus problem. With respect I suggest they look like the rantings of a fanatic

[Piratis]

Maybe some of them feel disappointed. But thats how EU works. Not everyone gets everything always. Disappointments happen all the time.

Unless you consider it an achievement to have continued a 50 year dispute and maintained deadlock?

Dispute and deadlock are approximately 100000000000000 times better than the Annan plan.

It's not just Turkey that faces these problems. The EU and the world (or at least their political leaderships) also consider this a problem.

Ok, so China and Sudan would be very disappointed if Turkey doesn't enter the EU, and people in Brazil and France will loose their sleep. Come on. Get serious! Apart from some leaderships in countries that can be counted with the fingers of one hand, the rest of the world would either prefer Turkey not to be part of the EU, or they simply couldn't care much either way.

If European leaders wanted so much Turkey to be part of the EU they wouldn't put all those conditions to Turkey. The fact is that most Europeans would NOT like Turkey to become a full member. If you can not see this, then you are blind.

[pantelis]

Many other (new) EU citizens have (phased) restrictions on total rights to free abode and employment in Europe. The EU is even talking about the possibility of _permanent_ restrictions in Turkey's case.

Erol,
Does this mean "No more settlers to enter Cyprus"?
How is the EU going to enforce that?
How is the EU going to stop Turks from obtaining Cyprus papers and then emigrating to other EU countries?

[erolz]

Erol,
Does this mean "No more settlers to enter Cyprus"?
How is the EU going to enforce that?
How is the EU going to stop Turks from obtaining Cyprus papers and then emigrating to other EU countries?

I presume you mean in a hypothetical future with Turkey a memeber of the EU (with restrictions on total free abode / work in the EU) and a united Cyprus under some sort of federal structure?

Well firstly as I understand it the issue of the granting of 'Federation of Cyprus' (for want of a better term) of citizenship would not be at the sole determination of the TC consituent state, but the federal Cypriot state and thus presumably would limit such 'immigration' into Cyprus?

Even in a senario whereby it was totaly under the control of the TC feceral component of a united Cyprus as to the granting of citizenship, if in reality millions or 10 of millions of Turks sough such citizenship merely as a 'loophole' to bypass restrictions on Turkish immigration into the EU, then the EU would take measures to close this loophole, and I have little doubt of their ability to do so in such a senario.

[erolz]

Dispute and deadlock are approximately 100000000000000 times better than the Annan plan.

Why?

Presumably your answer would be that deadlock still opens up the possibility for a more 'satisfactory' resolution (satisfactory to you and your maximal aims) where as the Annan Plan would signal the permanent end of any such hope? If this the case I would point out that continued deadlock may well lead to a permanent and solidified end that hope as well. In which case why is one route so many times better than the other?

Ok, so China and Sudan would be very disappointed if Turkey doesn't enter the EU, and people in Brazil and France will loose their sleep. Come on. Get serious! Apart from some leaderships in countries that can be counted with the fingers of one hand, the rest of the world would either prefer Turkey not to be part of the EU, or they simply couldn't care much either way.

The major world powers of the USA and the EU (politicaly) clearly want to try and achieve a senario where Tureky is a memeber of the EU. Even if you reduce this to the USA and UK, that may only be 'two fingers' but they are two fingers that represent a dominant power in world 'real politik' as seen by events in Iraq.

If European leaders wanted so much Turkey to be part of the EU they wouldn't put all those conditions to Turkey. The fact is that most Europeans would NOT like Turkey to become a full member. If you can not see this, then you are blind.

At this stage it does not matter too much what the people of the EU want or not. Of course latter on in the game this will be of much importance in those countries that have declared a referendum on Turkish entry, but right now what matters is the political will of these countries and the EU in general as a central body. Yesterday's events marked a 'turning point' in that political will. The EU wants to integrate Turkey into the EU. No body pretends that will be an easy process and many problems remain to be solved. As for the problem of Cyprus in as far as it represents one of the blocks to the goal of Turkish membership clearly the EU (as a central political body) has a prefered want / solution for the removal of this block. That prefered want is for both sides (GC and TC) to agree a settlement on Cyprus. They wanted you to say yes the last time round. Each time they try and achieve this prefered solution and it is blocked by GC maximal demands, the ground shifts a little. Ultimately it will shift to the point where the EU seeks other 'less ideal' ways of removing the block (with the obvious one being formal recognition of the TRNC as an independent sovreign state by EU members and others). They will do everything in their (considrable power) to achieve the prefered option, but if this becomes impossible and the blame is consistently percieved to lay with GC intrasigence, they will ultimately and eventual look for other ways to achieve the aim of integrating Turkey into the EU.