Cyprus-Forum.com

[zan]

Ye

s, TC sympathisers were killed by EOKA so how does that prove genocide occurred?

What category do we put what Nikos Samson did when he put the women and children into prison camps and nearly starved them to death and had all the men, over 200 of them machine gunned down in the grounds of a school??????

[zan]

The legality of Turkey’s action was upheld even by the Athens Court of Appeal in March 21, 1979. Unlike Michael Cacoyannis, this court lay the blame where it belonged: “The true guilty ones were the Greek Officers, who organised the coup and thereby created the conditions for an intervention."

[zan]

Greek Professor Iraklides says Greek Cypriots were responsible for Cyprus issue
Assistant Professor of International Relations Aleksis Iraklides from the Faculty of Political Science and History at the University of Athens stated that while observing the second round of talks between TRNC President Rauf Denktas and the Greek Cypriot leader Glafcos Clerides, where the issue of missing persons was taken up, relatives of the so-called missing persons were protesting outside the building where the meeting was taking place, and that in Athens there was the impression that in Cyprus there were only Greek Cypriot missing persons. He said that this was not the case because there were also many Turkish Cypriot missing persons who were the victims of the EOKA-B terrorist organization and the Greek Junta. He also added that some of the so-called missing Greek Cypriots were in fact murdered by other (left-wing, Makarios supporters) Greek Cypriots.

Continuing, Assistant Professor Iraklides said the reason why the Cyprus State only lasted for three-years before it was abolished is perfectly clear. He said the reason for this was the fatal 13-point plan proposed by Makarios on 13 November 1963, whereby the fate of the neighbouring community (Turkish Cypriots) would depend on the Greek Cypriot majority, who would basically put them (Turkish Cypriots) in the position of a minority.

He also said that the partition of Cyprus was as a result of the start of the bloody events of December 1963 and 1964, which led to the arrival of the UN Peace Keeping Forces to Cyprus, the gathering of most Turkish Cypriots into enclaves, and which also paved the way for all state organs to be in the hands of the Greek Cypriots.

Assistant Professor Iraklides also said that on the issue of the continuation of the inter-communal violence there are two main views; firstly that there was joint responsibility, and that secondly the main responsibility lies with the Greek Cypriots, who were responsible for starting the attacks.

He said that although the first view is generally supported by Hellenes or the friends of Hellenes, the second view is more reliable and even the UN Secretary-General, U Thant, considered this view to be correct."

[Alexis]

What category do we put what Nikos Samson did when he put the women and children into prison camps and nearly starved them to death and had all the men, over 200 of them machine gunned down in the grounds of a school??????

Yes, I absolutely do put that into the category of genocidal intent and if he was allowed to carry out his plans there is no doubt in anyone's mind that this is what he would have done. My contention is whether the Makarios regime, the one actually voted in by the GC community and also the one in power from 1963-1974, had this intention. I know that Makarios had Samson's support in the early sixties but remember that this was the guy Samson's and his coupists deposed precisely because he was no longer pursuing Enosis and was not ridding Cyprus of the TC community. Let's also lay down the other side of the story. We know for a fact that entire villages in the vicinity of Kerynia were marched out of their homes and put into temporary camps during the 1974 invasion, and that many of the men (as well as women and children) were shot, we also know that this happened systematically. We could then extrapolate perhaps that the Turkish Army's intent was genocide? actually I believe their intent was simply to create a strategic base in Northern Cyprus for their own military reasons as well as partition the island presumably for the benefit of Turkish Cypriots. Ethnically Cleanisng the area was possibly also one of their goals but the annihilation (i.e. genocide) of the GC community from the north of the island was probably not on the agenda, they were happy enough just driving these people out. So why call this genocide?
Accusing a state of genocide with little or no evidence is just not right especially when there is no evidence to suggest this was the case. Again, let me re-iterate that I believe Samson's intentions were genocidal (he has admited as much himself) but that was never my argument, it is about whether the GC community's aim was genocide and whether their regime implemented this or intended to implement this in the period 1963-1974, this claim is what I believe is dangerously misleading.

[andri_cy]

I think GC were called that because they were the Cypriots that spoke predominantly the Greek Language and the TC were called that because they spoke Turkish.

[zan]

What category do we put what Nikos Samson did when he put the women and children into prison camps and nearly starved them to death and had all the men, over 200 of them machine gunned down in the grounds of a school??????

Yes, I absolutely do put that into the category of genocidal intent and if he was allowed to carry out his plans there is no doubt in anyone's mind that this is what he would have done. My contention is whether the Makarios regime, the one actually voted in by the GC community and also the one in power from 1963-1974, had this intention. I know that Makarios had Samson's support in the early sixties but remember that this was the guy Samson's and his coupists deposed precisely because he was no longer pursuing Enosis and was not ridding Cyprus of the TC community. Let's also lay down the other side of the story. We know for a fact that entire villages in the vicinity of Kerynia were marched out of their homes and put into temporary camps during the 1974 invasion, and that many of the men (as well as women and children) were shot, we also know that this happened systematically. We could then extrapolate perhaps that the Turkish Army's intent was genocide? actually I believe their intent was simply to create a strategic base in Northern Cyprus for their own military reasons as well as partition the island presumably for the benefit of Turkish Cypriots. Ethnically Cleanisng the area was possibly also one of their goals but the annihilation (i.e. genocide) of the GC community from the north of the island was probably not on the agenda, they were happy enough just driving these people out. So why call this genocide?
Accusing a state of genocide with little or no evidence is just not right especially when there is no evidence to suggest this was the case. Again, let me re-iterate that I believe Samson's intentions were genocidal (he has admited as much himself) but that was never my argument, it is about whether the GC community's aim was genocide and whether their regime implemented this or intended to implement this in the period 1963-1974, this claim is what I believe is dangerously misleading.

I have no problem separating the GC community from that of Samson but I cannot separate the Government. We are talking of three different things here and I am sure it is not your intention to do so, but it does look as if you are trying to offset the blame factor. The acting Government of the time cannot simply wash its hands of the whole affair and blame it on smaller and smaller factions. This was a war against the Turks before it was a coup and it was a coup before it was an intervention and it was an intervention before it was an invasion.

[cypezokyli]

Greek Professor Iraklides says Greek Cypriots were responsible for Cyprus issue
Assistant Professor of International Relations Aleksis Iraklides from the Faculty of Political Science and History at the University of Athens stated that while observing the second round of talks between TRNC President Rauf Denktas and the Greek Cypriot leader Glafcos Clerides, where the issue of missing persons was taken up, relatives of the so-called missing persons were protesting outside the building where the meeting was taking place, and that in Athens there was the impression that in Cyprus there were only Greek Cypriot missing persons. He said that this was not the case because there were also many Turkish Cypriot missing persons who were the victims of the EOKA-B terrorist organization and the Greek Junta. He also added that some of the so-called missing Greek Cypriots were in fact murdered by other (left-wing, Makarios supporters) Greek Cypriots.

Continuing, Assistant Professor Iraklides said the reason why the Cyprus State only lasted for three-years before it was abolished is perfectly clear. He said the reason for this was the fatal 13-point plan proposed by Makarios on 13 November 1963, whereby the fate of the neighbouring community (Turkish Cypriots) would depend on the Greek Cypriot majority, who would basically put them (Turkish Cypriots) in the position of a minority.

He also said that the partition of Cyprus was as a result of the start of the bloody events of December 1963 and 1964, which led to the arrival of the UN Peace Keeping Forces to Cyprus, the gathering of most Turkish Cypriots into enclaves, and which also paved the way for all state organs to be in the hands of the Greek Cypriots.

Assistant Professor Iraklides also said that on the issue of the continuation of the inter-communal violence there are two main views; firstly that there was joint responsibility, and that secondly the main responsibility lies with the Greek Cypriots, who were responsible for starting the attacks.

He said that although the first view is generally supported by Hellenes or the friends of Hellenes, the second view is more reliable and even the UN Secretary-General, U Thant, considered this view to be correct."

i ahve the feeling that iraklidis will propably face the fate of other moderates (greeks , turks and cypriots). he writes a book, for the greeks to read, with the hope to inform them that we also made mistakes. in the end he is not read by the greeks, but the other side will use his work.

having read iraklidis book on cyprus i can say that he extremely critisizes makarios. he claims 12-13 fatal mistakes that the gc and greek side have made in the period 1948-74. but he explicitly sais that they are not the only ones to blame, but that is where he chooses to concentrate as a scientist. at the end of the day he posees the question : what is the best we could have done when all others (tc leadership , turkey etc) had opposite targets ?

no matter what it is a very interesting book to read. (he is also in the proposed literature of some greek universities).

one more thing here to add. while from personal experience i believe that the average greek , and the average greek journalist has no clue about cyprus, the best books i have personally read on the cyppro come from greek proffesors in the last 10 years. in their books one can finally find some real analysis. which is way different from what the average gc has read up to now, which was mainly journalistic, or from politicians or in any case too nationalistic . imo, if one wants to start reading literature on the cyppro in the greek language , he can be more safe if the name of the writer has a "prof" in front of it

[zan]

I did use to sign in as Professor Zan Cyp, but I too sounded less convincing.

[zan]

On a serious note; For GCs to read that book it would be like watching while you were being operated on. Although my wife’s’ granddad did exactly that on a hernia operation, most of us would be too squeamish to look and would rather look up at the ceiling and try to think of something else.

[cypezokyli]

On a serious note; For GCs to read that book it would be like watching while you were being operated on. .

on a serious note could you suggest similar writers from your side ?