Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kartal_Aetos]

no, i didnt bring in conspiracy theories...i just stated that if we are looking at one side of conspiracy theories then why not look at the other side aswell? because then we see again that both sides are not angels...

[Simon]

I never said that one side are the angels, I know there are two sides to the story, I have never denied this. However, nothing should condone the actions of these Islamic extremists.

[Kartal_Aetos]

ok then you are right...and nothing should condone the US and UK's actions in the middle east...we have reached a point where we understand one another...i just think its wrong the way they give all muslims a bad name and i dont want people to think that muslims are bad people...most are actually humble and peaceful people who try to live in harmony with the world around them...Its not fair for this kind of muslim...

[Simon]

It is that type of mentality I can never agree with. You are equating the US and UK with the Islamic extremists. It is not me who gives Muslims a bad name, it is these extremists and people like you who defend them by implying that the US and UK are just as bad. The US and UK are far from perfect and have made many mistakes. However, they are trying to help the Iraqis by giving them democracy, in case you had not noticed. Same in Afghanistan. They are trying to help those that are tired of being oppressed by the Taliban and want freedom. Of course innocent people will inevitably die as a consequence, tragic as it is, but at least it is for a better, wider purpose, than these extremists who you try to defend! One other major difference, the extremists kill innocent people intentionally, the US and UK, (while they do have some murderers in their midst, who do face punishment) generally do not.

[Kartal_Aetos]

but the problem is, simon, that they generally do kill innocent people...You just see a small part of it on your TV sets and newspapers...I don't give muslims a bad name at all...I am not happy with the al-qaeeda supporters killing people either...but to say that the US and UK have done something good...Im not so sure...and democracy might work, but who is to say other methods do not work too? Iran is run by dictatorship...but the people are happy...the country is prosperous and powerful...maybe not so much as US and UK...but there are many democratic countries who are worse off...

How come the US and UK don't go to africa? there are innocent people being killed in africa by terrorists aswell...but there is no natural resources and political importance for them in those countries...therefore they stay away...theres nothing in it for them...

[Kikapu]

The US and UK are far from perfect and have made many mistakes. However, they are trying to help the Iraqis by giving them democracy, in case you had not noticed. Same in Afghanistan. .

Yes I know we have been told this many times by Bush / Blair team that they want to bring Democracy to Afghanistan and Iraq as well as the greater Middle East. If they were really sincere, they should have helped solve the Israeli- Palestinian problem. They have done a lot of hand shakes, cheek kissing, high 5's, but no peace.

If they really wanted to bring about a lasting peace in Afghanistan, they should have never gone to Iraq. Instead, we have a Puppet president Karzai, who cant even rule beyond Kabul, and after 5 years since the Taliban was kicked out, they are still at war with them.

Iraq's Democracy is also a big joke. We interfere in their system of electing their prime minister by refusing one candidate over another. Why do you suppose that is.? Perhaps one is more against us than the other. We want Democracy so badly in Iraq, so that the ruling government will do as we say, so that we will have access to the oil. We don't care for these people really. Listen to the military personnel. Most hate the Iraqis and want to get the hell out of there. We have sacrificed 3,000 Us & British troops in Iraq, so that we can control their oil. Thousands of civilians died because for the same reason.

Did you know that before the invasion, we were going to call it "Operation Iraq Liberation" until someone saw that the first letter from each word spelled "OIL", so it was changed to "Operation Iraq Freedom". Sorry Simon, perhaps you want to see the "good" in the West, but you must always question their intentions.

[Simon]

Kartal, you need to understand something. Currently, how do you think innocent people are dying in Iraq? Because US/UK troops randomly fire to kill? Or because there are extremists bombing Iraq everyday? Islamic extremists are killing Iraqis today, not the US/UK. Do you hear the suicide bombings and car bombs every day on the news?

You ask people what they would prefer, democracy or dictatorship? Nine out of every ten will say democracy. Perfect or not, it is a damn sight better than dictatorship.

You seem to be misunderstanding me. I am not saying that the only reason the US/UK went to the Middle East was to help. I know they had their eyes on the Oil, and I agree with you as to the reasons they do not intervene in Africa (although the UN has tried to send troops to Sudan). However, what I was saying is that whilst their original intentions may have been wrong, they are still trying to help the people of those countries and better their lives. This is clear and this is why they are better than the Islamic extremists.

Here is something for you to do. Go to the 'Democracy' thread under Cyprus problem and go to page 5. Then tell me how many Muslim nations are 'free' i.e. green.

Kikapu,

They have tried several times to solve the Israeli-Palestinian dispute, so please do not act naive. There has to be political will to solve a problem, and Hamas refuses to recognise Israel has the right to exist! A sticking point, don't you think?

As I have said, the West are no angels and I agree they had ulterior motives when entering the ME. However, to equate them with the suicide bombers is ludicrous, for reasons I hope I do not have to explain.

[Kikapu]

Kikapu,

They have tried several times to solve the Israeli-Palestinian dispute, so please do not act naive. There has to be political will to solve a problem, and Hamas refuses to recognise Israel has the right to exist! A sticking point, don't you think?.

For Hamas to recognize Israel will be like GC's recognizing the Turkish Occupation and the loss of Northern Cyprus to the Turks. Now, are you willing to do that, because if you're not, then do not expect less from Hamas and the Palestinian people in general. The reason why we can not get peace in that region, mostly has to do with Israels Occupation of Palestinian land and it's people. In comparison to the Cyprus occupation by Turkey, Cyprus is still a "Paradise" in comparison to Palestine. It's amazing how we did not just "try" to invade Iraq, we just did it, so why is it so difficult to bring peace to the Israel - Palestine issues. Perhaps we just don't want to.

[Simon]

Kikapu,

You are trying to compare two completely different situations, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and the Cyprus one. In Cyprus, we are negotiating to re-unite as one country, in Israel/Palestine, this will never be the case. Peace their can only come with two states living side by side. Unless Hamas recognises Israel's right to exist (as incidentally the other major party, Fatah does) then no solution can be found. Israel should also withdraw from its settlements of course.

[cypezokyli]

Kartal, you need to understand something. Currently, how do you think innocent people are dying in Iraq? Because US/UK troops randomly fire to kill? Or because there are extremists bombing Iraq everyday? Islamic extremists are killing Iraqis today, not the US/UK. Do you hear the suicide bombings and car bombs every day on the news?

You ask people what they would prefer, democracy or dictatorship? Nine out of every ten will say democracy. Perfect or not, it is a damn sight better than dictatorship.

but the only real thing the iraqis experienced up to now, was dictatorship before 2003 and war (way more bloody) since the american and co, invasion. so the question is not if the average iraqi, would choose between democracy and dictatorship , as demoocracy is apparently not an option. now, how about we ask them what they prefer, the situation now, or the dictatorship (plus embargoes) they had before... who knows they might surprise us

second the americans dont have/need to become suicide bombers for reasons that i hope i dont have to explain.
the mess is already created, and had they read any basic book of history they should have known the outcome of creating a power gap. the gang who decided this invation is by now proven beyond any doubt, that they have no clue whatsoever about politics, history, sociology...not to mention military strategic planning (see the interview the british general in irak gave). the predictions they were giving short before the invasion, (not only failed miserably) but were based on assumptions that a five-year-old would label as absurd. they have created this mess and even though they are not the ones putting the bombs the blood of all those iraqis, is on their hands... if only they cared...