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Turkey should be dismantled for Peace

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby Kartal_Aetos » Wed Oct 18, 2006 4:01 pm

Cypezokli, i strongly agree with you that the oppression of kurds must end. The oppression of ANY ethnicity is wrong. That's why people have to stop all these hate breeding topics. It's exactly this kind of thing which causes oppression. If you keep telling people that a certain ethnicity is bad people then you are creating the gateway to future hostilities. And by you, i mean the people who start and support these topics...Not you as in cypezokli :)

And does anyone actually believe, by creating a kurdistan, that the kurdish people will be able to support and run a WHOLE country? there are not enough (if any) able people to become economists, politicians, ministers, etc.

It's all good and well to want your own country, but to run one is completely different.

Simon, you are generalising a group of people, who are not supported by many of those countries officially, and putting the blame on the countries as a whole...its like me blaming all greeks for EOKA B and you blaming all Turks and TC's for the turkish armys intervention...

there are INDIVIDUALS in those countries, yes...but not the whole of the countries...

p.s. nice signature quote, cypezokli...its very true :)
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Postby Kikapu » Wed Oct 18, 2006 4:12 pm

Simon wrote: 'Many' being Syria, Iran, Libya, Sudan, Iraq (before Saddam was forcibly removed) and the Taliban (former government but still fighting to resume control) of Afghanistan. Not also forgetting Al Qaeda which have links in many countries, including Pakistan, Jordan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Morocco etc. Al Qaeda has more support than what you might think amongst the locals of these countries, who shelter them. How 'many' does there need to be, to fulfil your definition of 'many'?


Simon,

I read the papers, follow the news on TV, Internet news, radio talk shows, so I consider myself fairly informed on World affairs. So here in my question.

Before 9/11, I don't think I heard too much about Al Qaeda, and I would like to know how many members on this forum had. Of course there were few lines in the news here and there, specially after the 1993 bombing of one of the Twin Towers, USS Cole and the Embassies in Kenya, but not to the amount we hear today. One needs to ask questions as to why that is. Did they just wake up one morning and blew up the Twin Towers just to piss the rest of the world off. These Muslim fanatics feed of the actions from the West. I'm not saying the West deserves what has happened, but the actions of the West has fuelled the anger amongst the Muslim Radicals, because of Israel- Palestine, Saudi Arabia - Iraq- Kuwait. Why is it, that people are becoming Suicidal Killers to avenge the West. How many of us, would even think of such an action..we can't, because we're not in the shoes of these mostly normal religious people, getting angry from injustices from their own governments cosy relationship with the West, when many Muslims are suppressed by the West through their own governments.

If I can speaks for People all around the World for a minute, I would say, that they like "fair play" in treating their fellow Human Beings. When this is no longer the case, people will fight to preserve that "fair play" even if it means killing others, which ever way they can. So, the reason why we hear so much of Al Qaeda and the support it is receiving from the Muslims, is because they are forced to stop the "unfair play" that has been imposed on them by the West.

Invasion of Iraq, had to be the West's biggest blunder in the history of Warfare. This was a dream come true for Al Qaeda. What the US and UK and the other 30 nations that formed the "Coalition of the Bribed" did, was to add life to an organization that very few people heard of before the Iraq war. If you're going to accuse some Muslims for supporting Al Qaeda, then you must also accuse some Christians who supported the "Coalition" that went to war in Iraq, that has ignited the whole "Bloody Terrorism" around the world. You must also need to point the finger of blame to your government officials, who caused this huge Blunder. You can blame the Muslims for their support for "terror", but you must also blame Christians for supporting in "igniting terror".
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Postby Kartal_Aetos » Wed Oct 18, 2006 4:18 pm

Bravo, Kikapu...a wonderfully written post...a perfect insight into the middle eastern situation...and here we have the age old expression, two sides to a story...
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Postby Simon » Wed Oct 18, 2006 4:35 pm

[quote]Simon, you are generalising a group of people, who are not supported by many of those countries officially, and putting the blame on the countries as a whole...its like me blaming all greeks for EOKA B and you blaming all Turks and TC's for the turkish armys intervention...

there are INDIVIDUALS in those countries, yes...but not the whole of the countries... [/quote]

I was stating a fact, like it or not. Whether these countries support them officially or not is irrelevant, they support them 'behind the scenes.' As I have repeatedly stated, but you do not seem to understand, I have never said all Muslims are suicide bombers; so your analogy with EOKA B really is flawed. All I said was, today's suicide bombers are Muslims. FACT. You are right, they are individuals in the countries, but too large a number which quantifies them into groups/organisations; that are supported indirectly by the state.

Kikapu,

I agree with part of what you say. However, the West cannot be blamed for turning these lunatics into terrorists. I completely disagree with this and I believe this is what you are implying. Injustice can be fought in many different ways, as we GCs believe we are trying to do in Cyprus; blowing yourself up in order to kill civilians should never be an option and can never be condoned. The extremists mindset is that they want Sharia Law the world over, for Islam to be the sole religion, for 'the Islamic flag to fly over Buckingham Palace' as one lunatic in Britian put it, etc. This is not the fault of the West, athough I do concede that the West has not helped in certain instances.
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Postby cypezokyli » Wed Oct 18, 2006 4:39 pm

hi kartal aetos
i agree with the what you wrote. what i disagree is only this :
And does anyone actually believe, by creating a kurdistan, that the kurdish people will be able to support and run a WHOLE country? there are not enough (if any) able people to become economists, politicians, ministers, etc.


that is an extreme generalisation, and sounds as bad as all muslims are terrorists.

i would never argue that this is an argument against the kurds having a country.
i am sure you didnot mean it that way...

they ve been running a big part of irak , quite succesfully for 3 years now, and have managed cleverly to stay out of the civil war...
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Postby Kikapu » Wed Oct 18, 2006 5:03 pm

:idea:
Last edited by Kikapu on Wed Oct 18, 2006 5:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Kikapu » Wed Oct 18, 2006 5:11 pm

cypezokyli wrote:[Kikapu,

I agree with part of what you say. However, the West cannot be blamed for turning these lunatics into terrorists. I completely disagree with this and I believe this is what you are implying. Injustice can be fought in many different ways, as we GCs believe we are trying to do in Cyprus; blowing yourself up in order to kill civilians should never be an option and can never be condoned. The extremists mindset is that they want Sharia Law the world over, for Islam to be the sole religion, for 'the Islamic flag to fly over Buckingham Palace' as one lunatic in Britian put it, etc. This is not the fault of the West, athough I do concede that the West has not helped in certain instances.


I did say, that I do not blame the West for the actions of the "terrorist" or deserve what the "terrorist" do to them. I did however say, that the ACTIONS of the West has ignited the cause of the "fanatics" to inflame "terrorism". The "lunatics" may have wanted to have Sharia Law in the middle of Hyde Park in London, but without turning everything upside down, like Iraq had done, these "lunatics" wouldn't have the support for their cause, because there would not be too many "fanatics" to help the "lunatics" in achieving their goal. This is where the West failed to recognize, that their actions in Iraq has created "fanatics" which is supporting the "lunatics".

Call it the "fanatics & lunatics" freak show, if you like.
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Postby Simon » Wed Oct 18, 2006 5:15 pm

I agree with what you say but be careful not to imply that the West is at fault for this problem because they 'ignited the cause of the fanatics' as you put it. This is far too simplistic. I agree that of course the West has not helped the problem with their actions, and indeed I have never stated otherwise.
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Postby Kartal_Aetos » Wed Oct 18, 2006 5:27 pm

cypezokyli wrote:hi kartal aetos
i agree with the what you wrote. what i disagree is only this :
And does anyone actually believe, by creating a kurdistan, that the kurdish people will be able to support and run a WHOLE country? there are not enough (if any) able people to become economists, politicians, ministers, etc.


that is an extreme generalisation, and sounds as bad as all muslims are terrorists.

i would never argue that this is an argument against the kurds having a country.
i am sure you didnot mean it that way...

they ve been running a big part of irak , quite succesfully for 3 years now, and have managed cleverly to stay out of the civil war...


i do see what you mean, but the thing is that they have not been in full control...maybe in a few years with some training they can build up the knowledge to run a country...but at the moment in irak, they do not set the laws, the economic policies and budgets, agricultural policies etc. and these are all areas which need expertise...i didn't mean to say that they are incapable of becoming ministers and economists and so on, but at the moment, there are none and this is true...i don't speak from my own knowledge but from what i hear from my kurdish friends...

Simon, you are bringing in conspiracy theories...no one knows for sure which countries (if any) actually support any of these organisations...Just because the west label them as supporters of terrorism, it doesn't mean they actually are...dont forget, US had no reason to go into Iraq...no WMD's found which was their excuse to go in...i am starting to think that maybe, just maybe, the US has its own best interest at hand...i.e. take out its old-time enemies...so label other nations it wants its hands on as supporters of terrorism...and it is fact that while the US condemn other nations for having WMD's, it has WMD's itself...so...these muslim nations...are they really terrorists? or are the terrorists the US and UK?
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Postby Simon » Wed Oct 18, 2006 5:34 pm

[quote]Simon, you are bringing in conspiracy theories...no one knows for sure which countries (if any) actually support any of these organisations...Just because the west label them as supporters of terrorism, it doesn't mean they actually are...dont forget, US had no reason to go into Iraq...no WMD's found which was their excuse to go in...i am starting to think that maybe, just maybe, the US has its own best interest at hand...i.e. take out its old-time enemies...so label other nations it wants its hands on as supporters of terrorism...and it is fact that while the US condemn other nations for having WMD's, it has WMD's itself...so...these muslim nations...are they really terrorists? or are the terrorists the US and UK? [/quote]

Now who is bringing in conspiracy theories? If you want to play stupid and pretend the civilised world is lying about these nations having terrorist links that is up to you. I suppose these terrorists just grow from planting seeds in the ground, rather than the Islamic schools of Iran, Pakistan etc (which was recently on CNN).
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