Cyprus-Forum.com

[cypezokyli]

i agree that the law against turkishness is rediculous and highly undemocratic.
turkey and the turkish people only have to benefit for the abolition of that law.

using the same argument i believe that the penalisation part of the french law is hindering free speech and should be abolished. if i am not mistaken french historians are against it.

[Issy1956]

Cypezokyli,
Having a law that against Turkishness is self defeating and counterproductive. It will be a sign of maturity for them to abolish it. If somebody insults Turkishnes they show themselves to be stupid or worse (racist) -if Turkey prosecutes them for this it makes Turkey look stupid.Therefore no point to it at all.

[Piratis]

Piratis,
Shit happens. Its tragic, its sad but you cannot condemn an entire nation as being bad for the actions (if indeed these actions were co-ordinated and deliberate to wipe out an entire nation) of an empire. The Ottoman empire was just that an empire and its death throes led to an awful lot of tragic consequences. If you want to delve into history recent and past you can find lots of things that "civilised" european countries did that we would find unacceptable today-have a look at the behaviour of the European powers in Africa for example (Belgium in the Congo comes to mind) and compared to them the Ottomans dont compare too badly at all.
Personally I think that the Turks should put their hands up and says these things happened under the Ottomans and are regretable but the Turkish Republic of today is not responsible.

Issy, I would agree with you if indeed Turkey didn't continue with the practices of the Ottoman empire.

Unfortunately Turkey continues until today with the same kind of middle age practices and their attitude shows that they even refuse to accept that those kind of practices are criminal and wrong.

You can not go around committing crimes and then whistle as if nothing happened.

[Issy1956]

Piratis,
As usual you are going overboard and not being even handed. This thread is not about the Cypprob but for what its worth in my opinion Turkey was right to intervene in 1974 and but wrong in putting up with a rejectionist/partionist like Dentash for 30 years and encouraging the formation of the TRNC. They should have been more active in resolving the Cyproblem leading to a united Cyprus. But it's true to say that it takes two to tango (as the 2004 referendum has shown) and that you cant unilaterally make peace. Turkey was also totally wrong in allowing settlers in Cyprus as this has made a settlement more difficult but again how much of this was as a result of the economic embargoes of the ROC and the necessity of getting the TC economy going I dont know but as a TC I condemn it. Cyprus is for the Cypriots.
None the less all of this does not meanTurkey is continuing with the practices of the Ottoman empire it means that it is a republic that has tried to protect its minority in Cyprus from being persecuted and oppressed (and I am speaking from personal knowledge here before you go into denial mode) and has made lots of mistakes along the way. Now that I have got that out the way would you care to outline the mistakes and errors made by Greece and the GC's from about the fifties onward or is not necessary as their behaviour and actions have been exemplary?

[Piratis]

Issy, you can give excuses to the Turkish occupation in the same way that some in Turkey can give excuses to the Armenian genocide. However the fact is that Turkey had the right to intervene only to restore legality in Cyprus, not to occupy part of it, commit mass murders and rapes, and ethnically cleanse 1/3rd of the population of our island. Therefore there is no excuse for what Turkey did in 1974 and continues doing until today.

Yes, GCs and Greece did mistakes, errors and crimes in Cyprus. But those things belong only to the past, as opposed to Turkey that not only has a lot more of those things to show in her past, but they also continue doing them as we speak. If the mistakes and errors of Turkey belonged only in the past, then believe me, we would have forgiven her and moved on.

Since you asked about the errors of Greece and GCs, I don't have a problem to say them again. As you know we do not celebrate the coup or the criminal actions of EOKA B like the TCs celebrate the invasion and the crimes against us. On the contrary we condemn the actions of the illegal Athens junta, the criminal actions of EOKA B and in general any action after 1960 that went against legality and democracy, no matter who committed that action.

[Issy1956]

Piratis,
I am not making excuses for Turkey. I want them to send their soldiers home but only after an overall settlement not before. They are a symptom of the problem not the problem its self. We need to abandon the sterile propaganda and meaningless rhetoric on both besides and decide what sort of Cyprus we want ( a return to pre 74 conditions is not an option by the way ) and send all except token foreign troops home.
Talking of propaganda I was amused see last week a report in the Cyprus mail which had somebody obviously from the GC side describe the events of 1963 as a TC uprising. Having lived (just) through that I found that very funny. Do most of the GC still believe that there was a TC revolt in 1963. I would be interested in knowing.
It is my contention that until we honestly appraise and admit our own mistakes in the past we will not be able to make peace and face the future.

[Denis_B]

Turkey called it a "serious blow" to relations and has threatened sanctions.

OK, this might be a stupid question. But what meaningful sanctions could Turkey impose on Europe?

Stop exporting Kurds?

[observer]

Cypezokyli wrote:

i believe that the penalisation part of the french law is hindering free speech and should be abolished.

Just to bring the matters back to earth, it is not a French law; it is just a vote in the French lower parliament to secure votes for some politicians in an upcoming election. Its chances of being passed into law are the square root of zero.

[Sotos]

They are a symptom of the problem not the problem its self.

The occupation is the problem for us. For TCs is not a problem because they are not losing anything from it

[Issy1956]

Sotos,
If the occupation is "the problem" for you then we are in trouble. The essence of the problem is how do we as Cypriots organise our affairs so that we can live peacefully side by side as citizens in a united Cyprus republic. What the GC describe as occupation troops and the TC's as guardians of their security are concrete proof that we have been unable to sort out our affairs in the past. When we are able to agree terms there will be no need for these troops and they can go home. Their departutre before this happens will not in itself solve anything.