Cyprus-Forum.com

[Issy1956]

Piratis,
I agree with your definitions of ultra nationalists but not with their distribution in our respective communities It has not been my experience that the ultra nationalist reign supreme on the TC. That is a ridiculous assertion when you consider the majority of the TC voted yes for the Annan plan. I think you will have to rethink that line of argument.
When you say "Ultra nationalists are those who reject these universally accepted principles and they insist on human right violations, discrimination of citizens based on their race and undemocratic provisions that exist in no other democratic country in the whole world" are you refering to the actions of the GC government in the 1960's. It very much sounds like it. Perhaps its time for cypriots to set up a truth and reconcilation committe along the lines of the South Africans where we can all confess our sins.
BTW I read recently that the bodies of 11 TC policemen murdered in an ambush by GC colleagues in 1963 have been discovered in Oroklini. Is the GC admin going to lead the way and bring the criminals who did this to justice anytime soon? I would wholeheartedly support this and ofcourse any TC/Turkish Army criminals committing the same crimes.

[Viewpoint]

Piratis

Viewpoint, the Ottomans had under their empire huge regions for 100s of years. It is not an utopia but a reality that the balance of power shifts in ways that can not be conceived by those arrogant people who currently have the power and they think they will always have it.

The Ottomans are over, finito when you to have that swing in power use it Piratis, like you did back in 1963....but be sure to wipe us completely this time so that would will no longer have to share the island in any shape of form and your dream to convert this island in to a GC state will become a reality.

If you base your policies not on universal principles such as democracy and human rights, and you are just trying to use your power to gain on the loss of others, then be sure the day will come that you will regret it.

You do just that and wait for that swing Piratis, good luck. But if you should get fed up waiting for that swing i will be in the TRNC waiting for you to prove to me that you are to be trusted in a united Cyprus and that it is a much better option than being divided.

What I always ask for is democracy, legality, human rights for all Cypriots, and equality of all Cypriot citizens with no racist or other discriminations. Ultra nationalists are those who reject these universally accepted principles and they insist on human right violations, discrimination of citizens based on their race and undemocratic provisions that exist in no other democratic country in the whole world.

Why werent you GCs promoting this back in 1963? arent you now 43 years to late.

[Piratis]

I agree with your definitions of ultra nationalists but not with their distribution in our respective communities It has not been my experience that the ultra nationalist reign supreme on the TC. That is a ridiculous assertion when you consider the majority of the TC voted yes for the Annan plan. I think you will have to rethink that line of argument

The Annan plan was a partition plan, what the nationalists Turks and TCs wanted. A bit more on the Turkish side and even Denctash would have accepted it (since he was the first one to ever propose a confederation, something adopted by the Annan plan). It was the natural result of the current balance of power. I am not saying that many of those TCs would not also vote for a true unification plan, but I believe they would only be a small minority among TCs.

When you say "Ultra nationalists are those who reject these universally accepted principles and they insist on human right violations, discrimination of citizens based on their race and undemocratic provisions that exist in no other democratic country in the whole world" are you refering to the actions of the GC government in the 1960's.

The government in 1960's was exactly proposing ways that would remove such undemocratic provisions in the constitution we were all forced to accept. The TCs should have accepted a democratic dialog instead of withdrawing from the government.
Do you think the 1960 constitution was based on the principles I wrote above? For one, TCs and GCs were segregated and had to vote separately. TCs had a vice president and GCs a president no matter what the people would vote in democratic elections. Do you think this is democratic? Then the 18% of TCs was give 30% of governmental jobs, something which a clear racist discrimination against GCs.
What we should have done was to discuss on how we could improve the constitution given to us based on those principles. Choosing conflict was the wrong way to go.

Perhaps its time for cypriots to set up a truth and reconcilation committe along the lines of the South Africans where we can all confess our sins.
BTW I read recently that the bodies of 11 TC policemen murdered in an ambush by GC colleagues in 1963 have been discovered in Oroklini. Is the GC admin going to lead the way and bring the criminals who did this to justice anytime soon? I would wholeheartedly support this and ofcourse any TC/Turkish Army criminals committing the same crimes.

I am not against such committee. However for me what is more important than seeing Denctash and Ecevit behind bars, is for the human rights violations and illegalities to finally stop. Beyond that I would be very glad if in addition to a fair solution, the criminals of both sides paid for their crimes.

[Piratis]

The Ottomans are over, finito when you to have that swing in power use it Piratis, like you did back in 1963....but be sure to wipe us completely this time so that would will no longer have to share the island in any shape of form and your dream to convert this island in to a GC state will become a reality.

We never tried to wipe you out so don't try to fake history.

However you are trying really hard to prove to us that GCs and TCs can not live together on this island and that ethnic cleansing is a correct way to solve problems. Keep trying, you might convince us in the end.

[Natty]

Piratis,
Answer me one question. Do you believe the GC majority had the right to choose enosis in instead of independence as an option for decolonisation in face of TC opposition in the 1950's?
Yes or No.

Hi Izzy 1956, I don't think it's fair to try and force anything on anyone. I've always said that, as far as I can see, the biggest mistake made with the enosis idea, was the fact that in effect it left out the TC community. I think the Greek Cypriot community had every right to want enosis, but they should have taken into account the opinions of others. There's something, about the whole enosis idea, however, that I don't quite understand. The Greek Cypriots had been asking for enosis for a long time, since 1878, yet there weren't any clashes between the two communities until the end of the 1950's, (1958 I believe) and even then it was provoked....I don't know, I mean if the TC community were so firmly against the idea, why hadn't there been a lot more resistance, and earlier...to me, for the most part, until the end of the 50's, the 'ordinary' TC community were kinda more 'spectators' of the political arena than anything (meaning no offence to anyone, I'm probably wrong, and maybe 'spectators' isn't quite the right word to use...). I mean, as far as I can tell, the line of the official Turkish Cypriot elite up until the late fifties, early 60's (although I could be really wrong on that too... ), was that either the British stay on, or Cyprus (or maybe half of Cyprus?? Again I don't know for sure....) gets 'given back' to Turkey, but what did the 'ordinary' Turkish Cypriots think/want???

(I'm sorry if I offend anyone, I could be barking completely up the wrong tree here....but I'm here to learn!! )

Peace!

natty, i am really sorry to say this, but i have a feeling that every second thread you open is stuck on enosis - and the self determination of gcs. dont really know why.....
(ofcource i might be wrong)


if you are interested i would like to suggest to you the following book :
Michael A. Attalides
Cyprus
Nationalism and international politics
ISBN - 3-933925-35-5

the book is in english
believe me , it can answer a lot of your questions

Hi Cypezokli, your right it is the second post I've done....I guess it's because I really want to try and explain why Cyprus is in the state it is today....I think I get frustrated when people don't try to understand why the people of Cyprus wanted enosis, why it was considered 'natural'...(Although I know, maybe it wasn't as 'simple' as that)...It saddens me when people say 'enosis was only there because the GC's hated the TC's and wanted to oppress and murder them...' to me, that theory just doesn't fit....

Although thanks for the advice, I'll definitely follow it up...

Peace!

[zan]

The Ottomans are over, finito when you to have that swing in power use it Piratis, like you did back in 1963....but be sure to wipe us completely this time so that would will no longer have to share the island in any shape of form and your dream to convert this island in to a GC state will become a reality.

We never tried to wipe you out so don't try to fake history.

However you are trying really hard to prove to us that GCs and TCs can not live together on this island and that ethnic cleansing is a correct way to solve problems. Keep trying, you might convince us in the end.

Does this guy get paid to be a moderator?

[Viewpoint]

The Ottomans are over, finito when you to have that swing in power use it Piratis, like you did back in 1963....but be sure to wipe us completely this time so that would will no longer have to share the island in any shape of form and your dream to convert this island in to a GC state will become a reality.

We never tried to wipe you out so don't try to fake history.

However you are trying really hard to prove to us that GCs and TCs can not live together on this island and that ethnic cleansing is a correct way to solve problems. Keep trying, you might convince us in the end.

We were the obstacle you had annihilate to make your dream of enosis reality...

Feel free to prove me wrong whenever you wish, we have been unable to live together for 43 years

[zan]

The Ottomans are over, finito when you to have that swing in power use it Piratis, like you did back in 1963....but be sure to wipe us completely this time so that would will no longer have to share the island in any shape of form and your dream to convert this island in to a GC state will become a reality.

We never tried to wipe you out so don't try to fake history.

However you are trying really hard to prove to us that GCs and TCs can not live together on this island and that ethnic cleansing is a correct way to solve problems. Keep trying, you might convince us in the end.

DO YOU REMEMBER THE IPHESTOS FILES?
John Reddaway, who served for more than twenty years in Cyprus while it was under British rule, notes in his scholarly work on the British connection with the island that:
During the military operations in 1974 the Turks captured documents, which proved that the Greeks and Greek Cypriots had prepared military plans for the extermination of the Turkish Cypriots; those were published in English in 1977 and the originals documents in Greek are available for inspection. The plans were prepared with the knowledge and approval of the Makarios administration before the coup took place.

[andri_cy]

The Ottomans are over, finito when you to have that swing in power use it Piratis, like you did back in 1963....but be sure to wipe us completely this time so that would will no longer have to share the island in any shape of form and your dream to convert this island in to a GC state will become a reality.

We never tried to wipe you out so don't try to fake history.

However you are trying really hard to prove to us that GCs and TCs can not live together on this island and that ethnic cleansing is a correct way to solve problems. Keep trying, you might convince us in the end.

Does this guy get paid to be a moderator?

I don't think anyone gets paid to be a moderator . It is an extracurricular activity