Cyprus-Forum.com

[Alexis]

Hi guys,

My ten cents on this. I believe that as Natty says the GCs had every right to 'want' Enosis but not actually have it, similarly the TCs had every right to 'want' partition but again not get it. It was these two doomsday scenarios that the 1960s agreements were meant to guard against. Unfortunately the constitution proved unworkable in my opinion because the people on both sides made it unworkable. And I do mean both sides, sure either side can argue that they were only 'responding' to the other sides desire for the illegal but those TCs that strove for partition in response to Enosis are just as much to blame as those GCs that pushed for Enosis in response to partition (and before). The two desires were diametrically opposed but due to the demographical situation in Cyprus were both out of the question without violating the rights of the other community. The moral of the story is that the extreme view will always be wrong. An analogy: The vigilante who kills murderers is just as much a murderer himself as the murderers he is killing even if he feels he is acting in 'response' to others criminal actions. This kind of action will not stop the murderers from murdering but might just create more murderers. (apologies for the frequency of variations of the word murder )

[Piratis]

Issy, my apologies that I am not here 24/7 to immediately answer your questions...

Piratis,
Answer me one question. Do you believe the GC majority had the right to choose enosis in instead of independence as an option for decolonisation in face of TC opposition in the 1950's?
Yes or No.

The answer is the same to the question: "Do you believe that when Bulgaria is accepted in EU, and in a referendum the Turkish minority reject the idea of Bulgaria joining the EU, does this mean that Bulgaria should not join?"

So yes, integration to Greece should have been an option for the Cypriot people to choose from in a democratic way. Each Turkish Cypriot would get one vote like every other Cypriot, I hope you understand that the time of the Ottoman rule were one Turk equaled 100 Greeks, is now over.

Cypriots had the right to have union with Greece as an option for the decolonization of Cyprus.

I believe that as Natty says the GCs had every right to 'want' Enosis but not actually have it, similarly the TCs had every right to 'want' partition but again not get it.

Union with Greece did not mean human right violations and ethnic cleansings. Partition could be achieved only with such means, and this is why partition is not one of the legitimate options after decolonization.

I can understand why TCs would not want Cyprus to become part of Greece, in the same way I can understand the very logical arguments that some people have when they disagree with their country joining the EU.

However all these arguments should be part of a democratic dialog between the people, with a democratic referendum in the end. You can not force your will just because you feel like.

In any case, in 1960 we accepted the compromise and abandoned the enosis idea. In my opinion a true independence would have been a much better choice than anything else, and today most Greek Cypriots would not choose union with Greece. Personally I see no reason to insist on enosis, since we could get our liberation with independence as well, something that should satisfy an even bigger percentage of our population.

While the right of GCs for enosis is indisputable, the objections of TCs are also understood. Therefore a true independence, I repeat, would be a good compromise for all, and this is why it is for this true independence that we fight for today, and enosis is only remembered by a tiny minority of GCs and by some TCs who are unfortunately trying to use events of 5 decades ago to excuse illegalities of today.

Unfortunately the Turks until today continue to insist and force illegally their demand for partition. When will Turks and TCs abandon their extremist illegal demands?

[Viewpoint]

Piratis

Union with Greece did not mean human right violations

Why dont you try and explain that to the Turks of Thrace?

Letter to
UNITED NATIONS
COMMISSION ON HUMAN RIGHTS
SUB-COMMISSION ON THE PROMOTION
AND PROTECTION OF HUMAN RIGHTS
WORKING GROUP ON MINORITIES
ELEVENTH SESSION
GENEVA 30 MAY-3 JUNE 2005

Agenda Item 3a

MUSLIM TURKISH MINORITY OF WESTERN THRACE – GREECE

Thank you Mr. Chairman,
My name is Tzemil Kapza; I represent Western Thrace Minority University Graduates Association in Greece.

INTRODUCTION
An estimate number of 150.000 ethnic Turks live in the northeast part of Greece. Members of the Muslim Turkish Minority who have been living in this region for centuries identify themselves as ethnic Turks.
Although Greece is a full member of the European Union, signed and ratified most of the international instruments protecting basic human rights, the Greek state unfortunately continues to ignore its obligations regarding the recognition and the protection of the rights of the Muslim Turkish Minority of Western Thrace as well as the rights of other existing ethnic minorities in Greece, such as the Macedonian.

DENIAL OF ETHNIC IDENTITY
The violation of the right of the minority to identify itself as “Turkish” is a major problem today. In early years Greek authorities made it obligatory for the minority to identify itself as “Turkish” and its members as “Turks”. This policy was later changed. The designation of the minority associations as “Turkish” has been forbidden. Although the Xanthi Turkish Union had been legally operated from 1927 until 1983 the Supreme Court of Greece in its final decision on 7th February 2005 dissolved the Union because of the term “Turkish” in its title. Furthermore, the same court rejected the application of registration of the Rodopi Turkish Women’s Cultural Association for the same reason. Both cases, now, await for submission before the European Court of Human Rights. Greece denies the existence of any ethnic minority but recognizes only a “Muslim” minority.
Article 2 (4) of the UN Declaration on Persons Belonging to National or Ethnic, Religious and Linguistic Minorities states that: “Persons belonging to minorities have the right to establish and maintain their own associations”. Also, in article 1 (1) of the same declaration it is stated that: “States shall protect the existence and the national or ethnic, cultural, religious and linguistic identity of minorities within their respective territories and shall encourage conditions for the promotion of that identity.” This is also supported by Article 19 of the UN Declaration of Human Rights on Freedom of Expression. I also should remind the 1994 General Comment by the UN Human Rights Committee on Article 27 of the ICCPR: “It makes clear that the existence of minorities does not depend on the state decision but is to be established by objective criteria; and that non-citizens and even non-permanent residents of state qualify protection under Article 27.”
Taking into consideration these international instruments the continuously denial of the ethnic identity of the minority is against the statue of the minority which was established and is under protection by section III of the Peace Treaty of Lausanne, 1923. Therefore, I propose that Greek authorities should recognize the existence of the Turkish Minority and cease violating their rights as an ethnic group.

RELIGIOUS RIGHTS
Greece officially recognizes only a “Muslim Minority” within the state.
Article 6 (g) in the Declaration on the Elimination of All Forms of Intolerance and of Discrimination Based on Religion, states the right to: “Train, appoint, elect, or designate by succession appropriate leaders called for by the requirements and standards of any religion or belief”, which is also supported by Article 18 of the UN Declaration of Human Rights and Article 1 of the UN Declaration of Persons Belonging to Minorities. In addition to these international instruments the religious rights of this minority are also guaranteed by Athens Treaty of 1913, the Greek Law no: 2345/1920 and the Peace Treaty of Lausanne. Article 28 of the Greek Constitution also guarantees the implementations of the international treaty obligations.
The offices of the Mufti of Komotini and Xanthi are still composed of people appointed by the Greek government. Contrary to the wishes of the Turkish Muslim Minority in Western Thrace, who consider Mr. Mehmet Emin Aga and Ibrahim Serif as their mufti, the Greek state does not recognize them as the religious leaders of the minority. Furthermore, in 1984 the government punished three imams who were teaching the holy Quran in mosques. The imams refused to pay the punishment. As a result, the finance officers have sequestrated their properties.
Another area of controversy is about the Turkish Muslim Minority’s control over its social and charitable organizations (Waqfs). At present, while most of the Waqfs are still managed by people who were appointed by the government during the rule of the military junta of the 60’s the officials who died are replaced by new appointees. For example, on 10th of January 2005 the Greek government appointed new executive committee for the Waqfs in the region of Xanthi.
The Greek government should be encouraged to create positive environment for the Turkish Minority to exercise their freedom of worship and choose of their own religious leaders.

EDUCATIONAL RIGHTS
The Peace Treaty of Lausanne guarantees the Educational rights of the Muslim Turkish Minority. Articles 40 and 41 of the Treaty provides equal rights for the minority to establish, manage and control at their own expenses any schools…(40)… and adequate facilities for ensuring that primary school instruction shall be given to children trough their own language…(41)… The central authority constantly interferes in and undermines the autonomy of the minority education system through different ways such as the selection, training and appointment of teachers in the minority primary schools. The Greek state started establishing nurseries in almost every village inhabited by Turks, which caused deep resentment within the minority community and undermined the already weak system of teaching in the mother tongue.
In Article 4 (3) of the UN Declaration on the Rights on Persons Belonging to Minorities it is stated that: “States should take appropriate measures so that, wherever possible, persons belonging to minorities have adequate opportunities to learn their mother tongue.” This is supported by Article 26 (1) and (3) of the UN Declaration of Human Rights. I should also note that all these practices of the Greek state in the field of minority education are against the Hague Recommendations Regarding the Educational Rights of National Minorities (1996).

Mr. Chairman
In conclusion, I would recommend that the Greek state should implement its obligations of the international instruments which is a party to and ratify the Council of Europe’s Framework Convention for the Protection of National Minorities, which signed in 1997.
Thank you Mr. Chairman

Unfortunately the Turks until today continue to insist and force illegally their demand for partition. When will Turks and TCs abandon their extremist illegal demands?

When something better comes along, so get your heads out of the clouds and come back down to earth where the realities will not just go away because you choose to ignore them.

[Piratis]

Viewpoint, the Turks of Thrace have multiplied over the years, in contrast with the Greeks of Turkey whose number is greatly reduced. Why do you think is that?

Mr. Kapza can claim a lot, and I don't doubt that to a certain degree they are true. Greece can make a lot in this respect. However Greece, just like any other country, is trying to protect its sovereignty. With the example of Cyprus were a Turkish Cypriot minority decided that they deserve a separate part of their country just for themselves, Greece had to be very careful and not to allow such thing to happen within her borders.

They did this by calling the Turks of Trace as Muslims instead of Turks, and such kind of methods. They didn't go to bomb their houses and kill them, like Turkey does with its own minorities, the Kurds for example.

In any case as I said above I can understand your objections to such union, which is why I have never asked for such thing to happen. All I said is that the demand of GCs of that time was not something beyond a legitimate option for decolonization.

When something better comes along, so get your heads out of the clouds and come back down to earth where the realities will not just go away because you choose to ignore them.

The only reality that matters is the balance of power, which is constantly changing. Greek Cypriots have lived in Kerinia, Famagusta and all parts of Cyprus for 3500 years. They have their homes, their business, their traditions and everything in those places. These realities didn't seem to bother you when you ethnically cleansed them, did they?

If the native people of those lands could be removed from their homes within days, then be sure they can even easier return once the balance of power will allow it, no matter of what "realities" you try to make, such as the change of the names of our villages, the sale of our properties to foreigners etc. All these illegalities will not matter one bit once the right time will come.

[Viewpoint]

Piratis

Viewpoint, the Turks of Thrace have multiplied over the years, in contrast with the Greeks of Turkey whose number is greatly reduced. Why do you think is that?

Birth Control, large families, to much sex?

Mr. Kapza can claim a lot, and I don't doubt that to a certain degree they are true. Greece can make a lot in this respect. However Greece, just like any other country, is trying to protect its sovereignty. With the example of Cyprus were a Turkish Cypriot minority decided that they deserve a separate part of their country just for themselves, Greece had to be very careful and not to allow such thing to happen within her borders.

Did they also have a 1960 constitution like us?

They did this by calling the Turks of Trace as Muslims instead of Turks, and such kind of methods. They didn't go to bomb their houses and kill them, like Turkey does with its own minorities, the Kurds for example.

So according this warped logic the Indians and Pakistanis in the UK should also be called Muslims as well. Own up they are not acting very European or in line with human rights and democracy so don't quote the example of us not losing our rights if enosis took place, its an insult.

They were not as lucky as us, to have Turkey take the necessary steps to ensure we were not reduced to the same situation as those Turks in Thrace or even worse.

In any case as I said above I can understand your objections to such union, which is why I have never asked for such thing to happen. All I said is that the demand of GCs of that time was not something beyond a legitimate option for decolonization.

Thank you, but you made me fight for my rights which of course you got the worse end of, ad I always say if you play with fire you will surely get burnt.

The only reality that matters is the balance of power, which is constantly changing. Greek Cypriots have lived in Kerinia, Famagusta and all parts of Cyprus for 3500 years. They have their homes, their business, their traditions and everything in those places. These realities didn't seem to bother you when you ethnically cleansed them, did they?

We acknowledge this but unfortunately we have been unable to find a solution that will address these issues don't forget the last all out effort was resoundingly rejected by the GCs.

If the native people of those lands could be removed from their homes within days, then be sure they can even easier return once the balance of power will allow it, no matter of what "realities" you try to make, such as the change of the names of our villages, the sale of our properties to foreigners etc. All these illegalities will not matter one bit once the right time will come.

Empty threats, do you worst, blow us to kingdom come when of course when the balance of power swings your way but in the meantime while you are waiting shut up as these empty threats do your cause a great dis-service and ensure cementing partition.

[cypezokyli]

Piratis,
Answer me one question. Do you believe the GC majority had the right to choose enosis in instead of independence as an option for decolonisation in face of TC opposition in the 1950's?
Yes or No.

Hi Izzy 1956, I don't think it's fair to try and force anything on anyone. I've always said that, as far as I can see, the biggest mistake made with the enosis idea, was the fact that in effect it left out the TC community. I think the Greek Cypriot community had every right to want enosis, but they should have taken into account the opinions of others. There's something, about the whole enosis idea, however, that I don't quite understand. The Greek Cypriots had been asking for enosis for a long time, since 1878, yet there weren't any clashes between the two communities until the end of the 1950's, (1958 I believe) and even then it was provoked....I don't know, I mean if the TC community were so firmly against the idea, why hadn't there been a lot more resistance, and earlier...to me, for the most part, until the end of the 50's, the 'ordinary' TC community were kinda more 'spectators' of the political arena than anything (meaning no offence to anyone, I'm probably wrong, and maybe 'spectators' isn't quite the right word to use...). I mean, as far as I can tell, the line of the official Turkish Cypriot elite up until the late fifties, early 60's (although I could be really wrong on that too... ), was that either the British stay on, or Cyprus (or maybe half of Cyprus?? Again I don't know for sure....) gets 'given back' to Turkey, but what did the 'ordinary' Turkish Cypriots think/want???

(I'm sorry if I offend anyone, I could be barking completely up the wrong tree here....but I'm here to learn!! )

Peace!

natty, i am really sorry to say this, but i have a feeling that every second thread you open is stuck on enosis - and the self determination of gcs. dont really know why.....
(ofcource i might be wrong)


if you are interested i would like to suggest to you the following book :
Michael A. Attalides
Cyprus
Nationalism and international politics
ISBN - 3-933925-35-5

the book is in english
believe me , it can answer a lot of your questions

[observer]

Quote:
Also the Brits recruited the TC to the security forces settings the GC against the turks


That 'Divide and Rule' again....

Let's put this simple sloganising to bed. I'm old enough to remember the 1950s.

GCs were in the ascedency in Cyprus at that time, being favoured by the long memoried British because of Turkey's position in WW1, and because of Greece being an ally in WW2. The killing aimed at gaining enosis was directed at the British, though not then supported by all GCs (I believe more GCs were killed by EOKA than Brits though inevitably numbers vary dependent on source).

TCs had no wish to swap British colonialism for Greek colonialism, and because they were less likely to side with EOKA became the natural source of guards etc.

The dividing came about because of the EOKA's attempts to bring about enosis, killing Brits, TCs, and GC opponents. It is interesting to speculate (though ultimately futile) what would have happened if there had been a genuine independence movement, embracing GCs and TCs. In the spirit of the times it is unlikely that Britain could have withstood it for long, and today there would be an independent Cyprus with one flag, not three, and no British bases.

[Issy1956]

Piratis,
So cutting through the verbage the answer is Yes the majority have the right to dictate to the minority even if this means the destruction of the minority.
We got there in the end even if this is all dressed up with your justifications and as we didnt have a area of Cyprus that was (then ) exclsuivley TC we could lump it. Ok I get your position.

[Piratis]

So cutting through the verbage the answer is Yes the majority have the right to dictate to the minority even if this means the destruction of the minority.

It didn't mean the destruction of a minority at all. It meant doing what Cypriots in their majority want. How come and for you it was OK if Cyprus is ruled by Turks for 300 years against the will of the majority, but if Cyprus is part of Greece is not OK?

They were not as lucky as us, to have Turkey take the necessary steps to ensure we were not reduced to the same situation as those Turks in Thrace or even worse.

So I am guessing you would fully support an invasion of Greece in Turkey to stop the oppression of Greeks there? Maybe Armenia should invade Turkey also, and maybe somebody should invade Turkey to save the Kurds. I am sure you would fully support these, right?

The Turkish minority was used by Turkey to invade and occupy our country. Plain and simple. All the rest are lame excuses.

Empty threats, do you worst, blow us to kingdom come when of course when the balance of power swings your way but in the meantime while you are waiting shut up as these empty threats do your cause a great dis-service and ensure cementing partition.

It is not a threat to say that we will liberate our country from the foreign occupation once the balance of power will allow us to. Partition can not be cemented. Nothing you will do will be able to stop us returning to our homes apart from sinking northern Cyprus under the sea. The worst things you do against us, the worst things you will get in return.

[Viewpoint]

Piratis

It is not a threat to say that we will liberate our country from the foreign occupation once the balance of power will allow us to

Feel free to do this whenever or if the balance of power goes your way and please ensure you annihilates all TCs this time, but until that time arrives, stop banding about empty threats. When I'm America I will get back what I lost you sound ridiculous.

Partition can not be cemented.

Its happening everyday and people like are contributing in abundance, the sad thing is your seem to realize the damage you cause.

Nothing you will do will be able to stop us returning to our homes apart from sinking northern Cyprus under the sea.

Sinking us means sinking you, you forget we share the same ship/island.

The worst things you do against us, the worst things you will get in return.

Go for it, feel free to do it at anytime you see fit.