Cyprus-Forum.com

[stuballstu]

Piratis wrote

stuballstu, the illegalities in Cyprus are denied only by those that have something to gain from them. You for example.

Please enlighten me as to what I gain from "illegalities" in Cyprus?

You are clutching at straws now Piratis.

The occupation of Turkey in Cyprus is illegal and it is clear to everybody in EU that Cyprus would use its veto to block Turkey if the Turkish occupation does not end.

Do you really claim that other countries can block Turkey just because they don't like Muslims, while the fact that Turkey is illegally occupying part of our country is not good enough reason for us to do it?? Get real please.

Continuation of Turkish occupation = No EU for Turkey. Thats all there is in this.

You have missed the point and failed to answer the question. If Turkey close all the chapters in their accession talks at what point does Cyprus use its veto? And how do you think the rest of the EU will view it?

As I have previously stated not a lot of EU citizens really give a shit about the Turkish "occupation" in Cyprus. If they hold a referenda in each country in the EU regards Turkeys EU accession don't mistake their "no" vote as support for Cyprus. Turkeys "occupation" is hardly headlining news and is not at the forefront of everyones mind if they had such referenda. They will vote based on how Turkey's EU accession will affect their country. ie an influx of cheap labour, freedom of movement of 30million + people, religion will play an important part of thier opinions also.

Even if other EU countries hold a referenda it does not garantee that they will block Turkey's EU accession. You example of Austria, in a recent pole, saying that they rejected Turkey as an EU candidate does not mean that Austrians are of this opinion because Turkey "occupies" part of Cyprus. If Austrian citizens don't want Turkey as part of the EU then that does not necessarily mean that Austria would use a veto. If Turkey "tick all the right boxes" then there is no reason why anyone has to use a veto as they have met the criteria set down to them at the beginning of their talks. Or is it fair to say that the ROC would try and move the goalposts?

The occupation of Turkey in Cyprus is illegal and it is clear to everybody in EU that Cyprus would use its veto to block Turkey if the Turkish occupation does not end.

So whyd did Cyprus or Greece as EU full members not have this written in to Turkey's EU accession criteria? Then there would be no need to use a veto as they couldnt close that particular chapter of accession.

Quote:
Who is Greece to judge whether a fair solution to the Cyprus problem is?


And who told you that Greece will judge? We will judge what a fair solution is of course!

You did!!!! Here is what you originally posted

No Greek government would accept a Turkey in the EU without a fair solution to the Cyprus issue.

Again did you answer the question? No. Did Greece support the Annan plan? A simple yes or no is suffice.

Personally I don't see an EU as a leverage to take anything from Turkey.
this is up to Turkey. Are they willing to give up many things, including Cyprus to get into EU or not? If their answer is no there is nothing we can do about it.
However if they refuse to make the required reforms, our role should be is to push Turkey as far from EU as possible. I already see EU flags being burned the day EU will give Turkey the finger, then I see all the reforms that Turkey did so far to be reverted within months. Hopefully this will push even more Turks to become fanatical Islamists. That will be the beginning of their end, and an independent Kurdistan being formed in eastern Turkey and north Iraq will be very possible.

Now I am not saying those exact events will happen, but certainly the rejection of Turkey by EU will have a huge negative socioeconomic impact on Turkey.

Those that arrogantly think that the balance of power will always favor them will sooner or later realize how wrong they were

The worst thing that can happen to Turkey is that they get a priveleged EU partnership. Strangely a recent pole in Turkey showed that over 40% of Turks are not bothered if they join the EU are not. So maybe your prediction re the negative socioeconomic impact would not be so huge after all.

What I am talking about is a shift in the balance of power that will allow us to liberate our country that is currently illegally occupied by the army of the Nazi state of Turkey and return to our land. Nobody will be exterminated, unless of course the death penalty is introduced for some individuals that are guilty for crimes and atrocities against us. As you understand RoC will have to restore the order and those that continue to support illegalities and crimes will have to face the justice. However I would support that RoC should be forgiving to the people that publicly express their apology for the crimes they have supported against us all these years. Our aim will be a truly independent Cyprus with democracy and no racist discriminations and those that support these universal ideals no only have nothing to be afraid of but they will also be finally liberated.

Piratis

Crimes against Cyprus? You have a very short and selective memory. No 2 wrongs dont make a right however the ROC is not as white as it would make you beleive it is.

Look at the trouble your president is in now. Former member of EOKA who told the Amercian ambassador that they could extinguish Turkish Cypriots in 45 mins, used his law firm to launder money from Serbia, being reported as taking bribes ( I hear £50k buys a lot in Cyprus now).

I think it should be part of the ROC begging for forgiveness.

Very hypocritical Piratis, very hypocritical indeed. Those in glass houses should not throw stones. Is your picture of the ROC still as white as its ever been? As i have said earlier you cant see the wood for the trees.

[Strahd]

Look at the trouble your president is in now. Former member of EOKA who told the Amercian ambassador that they could extinguish Turkish Cypriots in 45 mins

At least he did not do it... but my friend Turkey DID IT! They extinguished all the Greek Cypriots for the north of Cyprus...

Oh I forgot... you are excused...

[zan]

Zan, I didn't talk about any "exterminations" or any attacks along with EU. What you are arguing against is not my position but your own imagination.

What I am talking about is a shift in the balance of power that will allow us to liberate our country that is currently illegally occupied by the army of the Nazi state of Turkey and return to our land. Nobody will be exterminated, unless of course the death penalty is introduced for some individuals that are guilty for crimes and atrocities against us. As you understand RoC will have to restore the order and those that continue to support illegalities and crimes will have to face the justice. However I would support that RoC should be forgiving to the people that publicly express their apology for the crimes they have supported against us all these years. Our aim will be a truly independent Cyprus with democracy and no racist discriminations and those that support these universal ideals no only have nothing to be afraid of but they will also be finally liberated.

You seem to be providing plenty of fuel for my imaginations though Piratis when you keep warning people that if they support ethnic cleansing then you(the government ) can accommodate them when your so called change of power happens. Now we can add law lord to my original list as your new threat of changing the law so that "criminals" can be executed.
Really, you and Kifeas are so transparent in your propaganda, it makes me wonder if you ever read your own material.

As for crimes, the ones that instigated crimes against the Cypriot people should be the ones targeted. Makarios and his henchmen decided to outcast thousands of their own people and brought about the situation that exists today and you are not only supporting their cause but trying to absolve them of any blame by playing the numbers game. You should be ashamed of your stance and stop hiding behind what the Turks did in order to "re-balance" the shift in power.

Here is my tuppence worth of predictions on your EU aspirations of support. The EU will not pander to your centre of the world problems of Cyprus. If this line of defiance is continued by the RoC there will be a large split in thinking within the EU and the RoC will loose all credibility because it will be seen to be responsible for this split. Unless drastic action is taken the whole EU affair will be in jeopardy. This will result in the RoC backtracking in order to gain back the power they will loose in the process. Instead of a shift in power towards the RoC they will cut their own throats. Oh! And your mouth will be in conjunction with Uranus.

[Piratis]

Please enlighten me as to what I gain from "illegalities" in Cyprus?

Your personal interests that have kept your eyes shut to the illegalities of Turkey against Cyprus will not change if you hear about the illegalities one more time. I guess you wake up every morning and you wonder how come the "trnc" is an unrecognized pseudo state, since according to you there is nothing illegal about it and the Turkish occupation of northern Cyprus.

As I have previously stated not a lot of EU citizens really give a shit about the Turkish "occupation" in Cyprus. If they hold a referenda in each country in the EU regards Turkeys EU accession don't mistake their "no" vote as support for Cyprus. Turkeys "occupation" is hardly headlining news and is not at the forefront of everyones mind if they had such referenda. They will vote based on how Turkey's EU accession will affect their country.

Of course. Did I ever said that most Europeans care about Cyprus? Each country will decide based on its own interests, the same will happen with Cyprus. Just like all others have the right to reject Turkey for their own reasons, Cyprus can too, and Cyprus has much more important reason to do so than anybody else. It is even ridiculous to discuss this issue. Without and end of the occupation there is no EU for Turkey. End of story.

You did!!!! Here is what you originally posted

Did you manage to finish high school?

Again did you answer the question? No. Did Greece support the Annan plan? A simple yes or no is suffice.

No. Greece supported whatever the Cypriot people choose.

The worst thing that can happen to Turkey is that they get a priveleged EU partnership. Strangely a recent pole in Turkey showed that over 40% of Turks are not bothered if they join the EU are not. So maybe your prediction re the negative socioeconomic impact would not be so huge after all.

This is something that we will probably see soon.

Crimes against Cyprus? You have a very short and selective memory. No 2 wrongs dont make a right however the ROC is not as white as it would make you beleive it is.

Look at the trouble your president is in now. Former member of EOKA who told the Amercian ambassador that they could extinguish Turkish Cypriots in 45 mins, used his law firm to launder money from Serbia, being reported as taking bribes ( I hear £50k buys a lot in Cyprus now).

I think it should be part of the ROC begging for forgiveness.

Very hypocritical Piratis, very hypocritical indeed. Those in glass houses should not throw stones. Is your picture of the ROC still as white as its ever been? As i have said earlier you cant see the wood for the trees.

????????????????????????????????????? Are you serious??? The only hypocrite here is you. Greek Cypriots have suffered and continue to suffer by the Turks for the 99% of our common history on this island. You are the one who is trying to selectively find tiny parts of history just to excuse yet more crimes against us.

Here is my post some time ago about the topic:

First of all I have to make something very clear:

I believe that we should leave the past behind, we should forgive each other, stop all illegalities and move ahead with a united democratic country without racist discriminations and with respect to the human rights of all Cypriots.

Unfortunately I notice that there some people that insist on using a tiny and selective part of the past as an excuse for the continuation of illegalities and their demand for a "solution" that will be based on racist discrimination of people based on their ethnic background (which is something that exists in no democratic country in the world)

To those people Greek Cypriots deserved the violations of their human rights for the last 32 years and they deserve to be convicted for eternal violation of their human rights in a country that discriminates against them because of their race.

The fact is however that Turks in Cyprus have committed 100 times more crimes against Greek Cypriots than the other way around.

Greek Cypriots have been the majority on the island of Cyprus for 3000+ years. Their interaction with Turks starts in the 15th century, were the Turks attacked our island. This also answers the question "Who started it" for anybody that thinks that this is important:

Throughout the period of Venetian rule, Ottoman Turks raided and attacked at will. In 1489, the first year of Venetian control, Turks attacked the Karpas Peninsula, pillaging and taking captives to be sold into slavery. In 1539 the Turkish fleet attacked and destroyed Limassol. Fearing the ever-expanding Ottoman Empire, the Venetians had fortified Famagusta, Nicosia, and Kyrenia, but most other cities were easy prey.

In the summer of 1570, the Turks struck again, but this time with a full-scale invasion rather than a raid. About 60,000 troops, including cavalry and artillery, under the command of Lala Mustafa Pasha landed unopposed near Limassol on July 2, 1570, and laid siege to Nicosia. In an orgy of victory on the day that the city fell--September 9, 1570--20,000 Nicosians were put to death, and every church, public building, and palace was looted. Word of the massacre spread, and a few days later Mustafa took Kyrenia without having to fire a shot. Famagusta, however, resisted and put up a heroic defense that lasted from September 1570 until August 1571.

So now it is clear how the interaction of Turks with Greek Cypriots started in Cyprus, and the question "Who started it" is answered as well.

What followed were 300 years of Ottoman rule in Cyprus. During these 3 centuries Greek Cypriots were oppressed second category citizens. They had to pay multiple times the taxes of muslims and their testimony in courts was not accepted. Whenever they tried to revolt against their oppressors they were slaughtered.

So here we have a period were Turks were oppressing and killing Greeks in Cyprus. The result of this period was 300 years of oppression against GCs and 10s of thousands of Greek Cypriots dead.

The next "round" of conflict between the two communities was at the end of the British rule in Cyprus, and then from 63 to 68. During this period extremists from both sides were committing crimes and atrocities.

This is the only period that TCs remember, but even here they remember only their own casualties and not the crimes that they had committed against GCs.

So this is a period were both sides had about an equal number of casualties, some 100s for each side.

Then in 1974 the illegal coupists overthrow our president and Turkey found the excuse to invade Cyprus. No TC was killed by the coupists before the invasion had started, but only after.
The result of the coup/invasion was 6000 GCs dead and 200.000 GCs ethnically cleansed. On the other side the TCs had only a couple of 100s of victims.

The next period is the 32 years of illegal occupation and insistence from Turkey to violate international law and human rights. This continues until today.

Conclusion:
1) The Turks "started it" in the 15th century
2) The Turks have committed much much more crimes against Greek Cypriots.
3) The Turks insist on their crimes today
4) Greek Cypriots have committed crimes as well, but only a tiny fraction of the crimes that the Turks have committed.

Still, Greek Cypriots are more than willing to put all these behind as long as we are not provoked by people that remember only the 1% of history that suits that in order to prove that Greek Cypriots are the evil people that deserve even more crimes against them.

Therefore I ask from people on this forum to either:

1) Leave the past behind. Do not try to excuse crimes and illegalities in 2006 with events that happened in the past. Concentrate on how we can find a solution that will respect all Cypriots equally without racist discriminations and human right violations.

Or, if doing (1) is impossible for you then at least:

2) If you believe that the past should be used to determine who is the "good" and who is the "bad" one and that this should be the basis of solving the Cyprus problem (instead of democracy, human rights and legality, that I propose) then at least use the whole history and not the tiny bits that suit you.

[Viewpoint]

AT what point did you have the opportunity to build a united Cyprus? at what point did yo u have 70% of the control to use and cultivare a Cypriot nation?? at what stage could you have administered democracy and human right for all "RoC" citizens?? and what did you do? ho that bomb Piratis if only you had left it alone.....

[stuballstu]

Strahd wrote

stuballstu wrote:

Look at the trouble your president is in now. Former member of EOKA who told the Amercian ambassador that they could extinguish Turkish Cypriots in 45 mins


At least he did not do it... but my friend Turkey DID IT! They extinguished all the Greek Cypriots for the north of Cyprus...

Oh I forgot... you are excused...

Strahd

Just to clarify. When did Turkey threaten to or indeed extinguish all Greek Cypriots? It created at the time some refugees estimated in 1974 at 160 to 170,000 at that time. Deaths, unfortunately no matter how regrettable, are a bi-product of war.

Do you think that Mr Papadopolous is someone who can make this statement to the American ambassador and 32 years later expect to win the trust of the people he threatened with extermination? Be real.

Piratis wrote

Quote:
Please enlighten me as to what I gain from "illegalities" in Cyprus?

Your personal interests that have kept your eyes shut to the illegalities of Turkey against Cyprus will not change if you hear about the illegalities one more time. I guess you wake up every morning and you wonder how come the "trnc" is an unrecognized pseudo state, since according to you there is nothing illegal about it and the Turkish occupation of northern Cyprus.

My personal interests Piratis? Do elaborate what they are.

As I have said before on this forum I have a house in the as you call it "Unrecognised pseudo state" and also having one built in Paphos. My title deeds are clean and i can sleep at night. But do go on about your personal assumptions and please tell me what i have to gain. I do have business interests both sides of the green line but nothing that any settlement will make an impact on. What saddens me is Cypriots like you who want to blame everyone else for the wrongs in Cyprus without being prepared to take any portion of blame. As every day the web of the Cyprus problem gets thicker and more knotted the more difficult it will become to re-unite this wonderful island. Let me ask you Piratis hand on your heart have the ROC government done anything of substance in the past 30 odd years to solve the Cyprus problems?

Quote:
You did!!!! Here is what you originally posted


Did you manage to finish high school?

What on earth are you talking about? Why when you are stuck for words you resort to insults? Read the post again, and i will accept your apology for your inability to digest what you yourself wrote. If you dont understand what you are writing maybe you should consider further education.

Quote:
Again did you answer the question? No. Did Greece support the Annan plan? A simple yes or no is suffice.

No. Greece supported whatever the Cypriot people choose

You know what i am getting at Piratis. Prior to the Annan referendum did Greece support the Annan plan or not? Just to clarify, Greece supported what Greek Cypriot people chose, not all Cypriots as you imply.

????????????????????????????????????? Are you serious??? The only hypocrite here is you. Greek Cypriots have suffered and continue to suffer by the Turks for the 99% of our common history on this island. You are the one who is trying to selectively find tiny parts of history just to excuse yet more crimes against us.

Which of my posts are hypocritical. Excuse more crimes? My friend you are deluded. Have you considered therapy?

I have read your previous post which to be frank i cant be bother copying and pasting.

You start off by saying that the past should be left behind then go into a rant about how the Turks have oppressed the Greek Cypriots for centuries.

Piratis
I hope you find happiness, although i think that you will disappointed as for what you want to achieve may be un acheivable. You are looking to avenge the ghosts of old in Cyprus. Doesn't your religion teach you forgiveness. Can't you use this to forgive for the crimes you say have been committed, many of which are before your time so you knowledge of such is second had anyway?

[Piratis]

AT what point did you have the opportunity to build a united Cyprus? at what point did yo u have 70% of the control to use and cultivare a Cypriot nation?? at what stage could you have administered democracy and human right for all "RoC" citizens?? and what did you do? ho that bomb Piratis if only you had left it alone.....

At no point. Even the constitution of our own country was written by others instead of allowing Cypriots to do it in a democratic way.
On the other hand, the Turks and the British had full control for centuries. How was this control used? It was used to oppress and enslave the great majority of the natives of this island.
You complain because we made a proposal that the 18% minority of Turkish Cypriots should receive proportional power instead of all those racist supremeprivileges like 30% governmental jobs. That was our "crime", while you forget that for centuries when you or the British were ruling Cyprus the great majority of Cypriots was not even asked for its opinion, let alone to be given any part of power.
Now the Turks do even worst. Not only they illegally occupy part of our country, not only they do in that part whatever they feel like without considering the legal population of that area, but they went on to ethnically cleanse us and to grossly violate our human rights again like they did for the most part of our common history on this island!!

[Piratis]

My personal interests Piratis? Do elaborate what they are.

Will you deny that you do a lot of business with those criminal crooks that "buy" our properties in the occupied areas? If you are just s law obeying businessman, why don't you tell us the name of your company (we will allow you the free ad) so we will see from first hand what kind of business you do in the occupied areas of our country?

What on earth are you talking about? Why when you are stuck for words you resort to insults? Read the post again, and i will accept your apology for your inability to digest what you yourself wrote. If you dont understand what you are writing maybe you should consider further education.

It was not an insult. It was a question. I said "No Greek government would accept a Turkey in the EU without a fair solution to the Cyprus issue." Your reply was: "Who is Greece to judge whether a fair solution to the Cyprus problem is?". From what I said what you understood is that Greece is going to judge what a fair solution is????

You know what i am getting at Piratis. Prior to the Annan referendum did Greece support the Annan plan or not? Just to clarify, Greece supported what Greek Cypriot people chose, not all Cypriots as you imply.

And since GCs did not support the Annan plan then Greece didn't either. You answered the question.

Which of my posts are hypocritical. Excuse more crimes? My friend you are deluded. Have you considered therapy?

When you refer to the illegalities of Turkey in Cyprus you refer to them as "illegalities" in quotes. Why do you use the quotes? You clearly support the illegalities and crimes of Turkey against us, so there is no use to try to hide it.

You start off by saying that the past should be left behind then go into a rant about how the Turks have oppressed the Greek Cypriots for centuries.

Piratis
I hope you find happiness, although i think that you will disappointed as for what you want to achieve may be un acheivable. You are looking to avenge the ghosts of old in Cyprus. Doesn't your religion teach you forgiveness. Can't you use this to forgive for the crimes you say have been committed, many of which are before your time so you knowledge of such is second had anyway?

The answer why was in the post:

Unfortunately I notice that there some people that insist on using a tiny and selective part of the past as an excuse for the continuation of illegalities and their demand for a "solution" that will be based on racist discrimination of people based on their ethnic background (which is something that exists in no democratic country in the world)

TODAY Turkey is illegally violating the sovereignty of our country and our human rights. This is happening right now.

What I ask is for these illegalities to stop. What reply do I get? I get lame excuses with people trying to excuse the crimes of today by selectively choosing tiny parts of history. Only then I remind those people that they have done 100 times worst and therefore they can not demand the punishment of GCs and a reward for themselves.

Therefore stop using selective parts of history to excuse crimes of today, and I will not need to remind you the other 99% of history that happened before and after the tiny part of history you choose to remember.

[zan]

Piratis wrote.

You complain because we made a proposal that the 18% minority of Turkish Cypriots should receive proportional power instead of all those racist supremeprivileges like 30% governmental jobs. That was our "crime",

No that was not your crime but your right. Your crime was through Makarios when he tried to take those proposals and make them a fact illegally. He then tried to make those proposals fact brutally with the use of EOKA and ENOSIS.

[Piratis]

Zan, those proposals were never implemented. How can you force proposals brutally? If we didn't care about the opinion of TCs then why those reforms were not implemented from 63 until 74 or from 74 until today?

We are still waiting from you to recognize that things like an 18% of people holding the 30% of governmental jobs (when in Cyprus being a governmental employee is the dream of 90% of people) is unfair and needs to be changed. Why you will not admit this simple thing?

EOKA B, and TMT the TC terrorist organization you always seem to forget, had committed several crimes against GCs and TCs, but that has little to do with those proposals. Those proposals were only used as an excuse by those that wanted conflict for their own reasons (enosis - partition)