Cyprus-Forum.com

[stuballstu]

stuballstu wrote:
Quote:
And what is the benefit if Turkey continues without making any concessions?


Why is it most Greek Cypriots think that it will only be Turkey who will have to make concessions?


Because they are the ones who are illegally occupying our land. In fact it shouldn't be called "concessions". It should be called immediate withdrawal of all Turkish troops from Republic of Cyprus and restoration of legality.

Piratis

It is not only Turkey who will have to give concessions is the main point. As Alexis has pointed out the ROC government and GC's will have to give concessions to Turkish Cypriots as well.

Tell me one reason why Cyprus would want Turkey in EU without a solution of the Cyprus problem?

It was the ROC who have lead GC's to beleive that by involving the EU in the Cyprob they will have a better negotiatiing position.

1) In the future when EU will get closer together and have a common EU defense, any hostilities between Cyprus and Turkey will be considered hostilities between EU and Turkey and not internal hostilities between two member states where EU can not take sides.

Most EU nations will not want involved in disagreements between Cyprus and Turkey which existed prior to Cyprus EU accession.

2) By entering the EU, Turkey will get richer and will be able to buy more weapons that can be used against us. Why would we want that?

When was the last time Turkey fired a weapon at Cyprus? Given the size of the Turkish military do you think they need any more money to spend on weapons against Cyprus. I think you'll find that they have enough to use against Cyprus if they ever wanted to.

3) IF they enter the EU they might claim that the illegal Turkish settlers that are in Cyprus can be here because they are EU citizens

.

Correct. By involving the EU what do the ROC do if a settlement in Cyprus is linked to Turkey's EU accession when the Turkish settlers become EU citizens then are able to move round Cyprus and settle anwhere they want to

4) By keeping them out we will be able to control to a degree the relationship between EU and Turkey (financial support etc)

Turkey do not need the EU's financial support. It is very questionable indeed the degree of control that Cyprus would have on EU/Turkish relations.

5) Turkey is hostile towards us, and a Turkey of 80 million people (and analogous representation) in EU would mean that EU in overall will be less friendly for us.

Turkey is hostile towards us??? Please can you be more specific on what you mean with this loose statement. Are you really so blinded to think that 80 million Turks hate Greek Cypriots? Are you assuming that Turkish people feel the same about GC's as GC's feel about Turks? You more than likely find that Turks have not coined the phrase "A Good Greek Cypriot is a Dead Greek Cypriot" because it does not exist unlike what GC's have used ( A Good Turk is a dead Turk)

Therefore we are not bluffing when we say that we will put a veto on the accession process of Turkey sooner or later unless Turkey withdraws her troops, fully respects the independence and sovereignty of Cyprus and stops acting in a hostile way against us.

Using a veto would be disastrous for Cyprus. The status quo would continue, the EU and UN may make moves to lift the isolation of TC's and as soon as that happens permanent division. If it gets to that point then the A plan looked good.

[Alexis]

What will you do about your army? will they withdraw or disappear as well? You may argue they are "RoC" soldiers but unfortunately they do not repesent or protect me, I would feel very uncomforable and at the mercy of GCs which is unacceptable to most TCs.

That wasn't really the point of my comment, I just used the issue of troop withdrawal as an example to clarify that the GC community is negotiating with the TC community and not Turkey and as such does not need to make any concessions to Turkey. Obviously in the event of a comprehensive settlement the issue of the current RoC army will be dealt with as well to both sides satisfaction. Anyway in response to your reply what about our army? They are Cypriots and as such have every right to be in Cyprus as do the TC elements of the Turkish army. By Turkish Army withdrawal I was referring to the non Cypriot army contingencies only. Of course in line with UN resolutions this would also necessitate the withdrawal of all Greek forces as well. I believe the Greek government will have no problem with this even prior to a comprehensive settlement as long as the Turkish Army also withdraws. I don't believe that the TC army represents me but since they are Cypriots I am happy for them to stay in Cyprus, it is the foreign armies (not accountable to any Cypriot) which I object to.

[Viewpoint]

But you will militarily be in a much stronger position than me and threaten my security which you have been condoning us for the past 32 years. You have to realize your army does not represent me in anyway and cannot provide for my security needs, what will be needed is the disbanding of all armies to be replaced by a joint effort of both GCs and TCs if we decide to have a security force at all.

[Alexis]

But you will militarily be in a much stronger position than me and threaten my security which you have been condoning us for the past 32 years. You have to realize your army does not represent me in anyway and cannot provide for my security needs, what will be needed is the disbanding of all armies to be replaced by a joint effort of both GCs and TCs if we decide to have a security force at all.

So what? Right now you are militarily much stronger than us with the Turkish Army in Cyprus and they certainly do not meet our security needs. The same arguments apply equally. The UN resolutions are clear the objective is clearly the demilitarisation of Cyprus, as a first step the UN calls for the lessening of foreign armies straight away and as part of a comprehensive settlement the disbanding of TC and GC militias. Then, like you say and perhaps after we have gained each other's trust the forming of a joint force. Why the Annan Plan called for an immediate disarming of Cypriot forces but not Greek and Turkish forces is beyond me? The plan did things the wrong way round as far as I was concerned. This is a minor point though and I believe the main reason for this was that the plan was meant to complement the 1960 agreements not supercede them therefore provision was made to allow the Greek and Turkish contingents to remain even though there were to be no Cypriot military forces. In my opinion this is wrong since the Greek and Turkish forces are not accountable to any Cypriot at least the Cypriot forces are accountable to their respective communities. If we really want to make a go of it the obvious target is complete demilitarisation. I still think though that even before a settlement is reached we can do away with foreign armies and carry on negotiating. Remember despite the apparent weakness of the TC military compared to the GC military you have the superiority in terms of air power and proximity to Turkey. Do not scoff at the air/sea superiority, if it was the other way round 40,000 Turkish troops would quite easily be defeated by a well equipped army of only 10,000 this is just a fact of modern warfare.

[Viewpoint]

Alexis like it or not the Turkish Army has acted as a deterrent for 32 years ensuring that both sides do not do anything stupid against each, who knows how many more innocent people would have been killed if they were not here.

One sided demilitarisation is not the answer either they all go or they all stay, a gradual reduction is acceptable like in the Annan plan but has to be done in such a manner that neither sides is put at risk or feels vulnerable to the other sides possibility of using force to obtain more than they agreed. You do not trust me and I do not trust you to provide security for my community. It appears to me this can only be achieved via a comprehensive solution as TCs would find it very difficult to send away their protector and leave themselves exposed to the mercy of the GC community.

[reportfromcyprus]

This speech is a lesson in balance, honesty without giving offense and constructive criticism without verbal attack.

I liked his point about non-violent opinions...

[Alexis]

One sided demilitarisation is not the answer either they all go or they all stay, a gradual reduction is acceptable like in the Annan plan but has to be done in such a manner that neither sides is put at risk or feels vulnerable to the other sides possibility of using force to obtain more than they agreed

vp,

I do understand your concerns and if it was indeed one-sided I would agree, but it is not. You can keep your forces we can keep ours. The TC side is always annoyed when the GCs talk about numbers to bolster our arguments with regards voting etc...but when your lack of numbers backs your arguments you do not hesitate to talk numbers. Of course our army will outnumber yours what I've been trying to say is that in reality your air/sea superiority and proximity to Turkey means you are actually less vulnerable than us despite our larger army. Given the TC forces are actually part of the TA you could even maintain air bases in Cyprus (e.g. Tymbou) that are comensurate with your army size and still have immediate air superiority over the GC military which has a total of 0 planes and 5 helicopters. There's no way you can consider an army size of even 5000 TCs as inferior to the GCNG given the air superiority you have, that is my point and even if you do you can keep some Turkish troops you consider enough to make your army the same capability as ours (there's no way we come even close to the 40,000 in the north). What I am suggesting is not one-sided if you look closely and in any case is actually endorsed by the UN.

[Viewpoint]

Technically you maybe correct I am not expert in that field but psychologically TCs will have a problem of letting go of the Turkish army when you consider the population imbalance. You to have reservists who keep guns in their homes numbering over 100.000 plus the GC army and the Greek army, this is not to be sneered at and always appears to be conveniently brushed under the carpet placing the emphasis on the 40.000 Turkish troops to create some sort of hugh imbalance.

Alexis I understand your concerns and as I TC know that to compromise I have to wave goodbye to the Turkish army but wouldn't it be best just to get rid of all armies on a stage by stage basis so that neither side can claim an advantage over the other.

[EUropean666]

EUropean citizens DO NOT WISH TO SEE TURKEY IN EU. Can you get it?

[Viewpoint]

That is your right...and if there are enough of you that think that way then they wont get in.