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Is this factually correct?

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby Kikapu » Sat Sep 30, 2006 5:12 pm

Piratis wrote:
however, the problem that divides the two communities comes down to "FEAR" and "TRUST".


I wouldn't say so. What divides the two communities is that the TCs are (illegally) given way more than what proportionately belongs to them and are also given the hope that somehow one day this illegality will be legalized which would allow them to fully take advantage what they currently control.

Before the Ottoman rule Cyprus had many other conquerors. Those conquerors had their own people on the island to run and exploit it (army, elites etc). Those people were of course a higher class than their slaves, the Greek Cypriots. However when each one of those conquerors lost the island to the next conqueror, those people either left the island or were integrated to the rest of the society.

The Ottomans also brought their own people to Cyprus when they conquered it, and they also forced several Greek Cypriots to switch to Islam, since Muslims were enjoying several privileges (e.g. much lower taxes) and were treated much better than Christians.
The difference is that when the Ottoman rule ended, a sizable Muslim minority stayed in Cyprus which continued to believe that they should maintain their super-privileges, and that they somehow can not be just equal citizens with the "inferior" Christians. This belief was re-enforced to them by the British (who loved divide and rule tactics) and also by Turkey since she needed Turkish Cypriots for their plans to re-capture Cyprus or at least part of it. At the same time a new Greek Cypriot nationalism was created to fight for the rights of just their own community.

That is the root of our problem in Cyprus. That instead of having equal people, we have two conflicting groups with conflicting interests (or at least thats what they are made to believe).

The problem in Cyprus will be permanently solved only if we all accept that all Cypriots are equal regardless of their language, religion, ethnic background etc, and we learn to respect each other. This will allow Cyprus to become truly democratic and all of its citizens will be able to enjoy all of their human rights without racist discriminations.

If that does not happen, and we continue to have two conflicting groups, then the problem will not end no matter what agreements we sign.

The great majority of Greek Cypriots have accepted long time ago that union with Greece would not serve the interests of Turkish Cypriots, and they have therefore abandoned that idea. It is time for Turkish Cypriots to abandon the idea of partition, and to accept that they are part of Cypriots in one united Cyprus, and not a separate entity.


Piratis,

I don't have a problem accepting some of your arguments as to what the reasons are of the present situation. You can give many more reasons if you would like, however, until there are no FEARS from anyone for their future to live in peace with each other, and there is TRUST to build a nation that will care for all of it's citizens without discriminations, we will lose the island to foreigners, by them buying it from under our feet.

I have mentioned this to you before as not to go any further back than 1960's for the reasons for our problems today. Most people only care what has happened to them since that time, and not what happened in ancient times. That might make a good history lesson to be told to children sitting by a fire place, but to vast majority, not only they don't care what happened 300 years ago, they don't care what happened before 1960's. What they care about is, what has happened since 1960's and how to find a solution for peace.

You may very well be correct, that those who are holding onto land that is proportionately more than what they should have, do not want peace, but rather a partition, in order to keep their "ill" gotten gains. If they don't have a better offer, that's exactly what will happen. Lets take away their "FEARS" and give them "TRUST" in "ONE CYPRUS" for them to abandon their other dreams. This is where the elected officials are not doing their jobs to do just that. Instead, they like to play a "cat & mouse" games, because this suits them just fine, to retain their positions.

So, what is your solution you might be asking.? Honestly, I have given up hope on the elected officials. It is time for people to rise, but not against each other, but rather rise against their own Governments, to bring about a lasting solution, otherwise, sooner or later, there won't be Cyprus as we know /knew it, worth rising for. As for your other solution, to wait for the "change of power", in order to have yet another war and re-create all of today's problems, once again from the beginning. Just how long do you want to wait for this "change of power" occur ?. Something tells me, since you seem to be fixated on ancient times history, another 300-500 years in the future will be worth waiting for, I guess.!!
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Postby miltiades » Sat Sep 30, 2006 5:12 pm

I would like to welcome LONEFORCE and offer my congradualations on an excellent first post. May you long continue to make interesting and well balanced posts. Your views confirm much of what I always posted that the majority of Cypriots share the attributes required for a united and peaceful Cyprus.
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Postby Piratis » Sat Sep 30, 2006 6:05 pm

Kikapu, to build trust we first need to have respect. Without the basic respect that we are all obligated to give even to strangers, how can we expect to move to things like trust and friendship? Would you trust or be friends with somebody that doesn't even respect you?

I have mentioned this to you before as not to go any further back than 1960's for the reasons for our problems today. Most people only care what has happened to them since that time, and not what happened in ancient times. That might make a good history lesson to be told to children sitting by a fire place, but to vast majority, not only they don't care what happened 300 years ago, they don't care what happened before 1960's. What they care about is, what has happened since 1960's and how to find a solution for peace.


For me and the majority of the population today, 1960 is as much part of history as 1900 or 1800 is. So why take that point in history, and not, for example 1974?
The way I see it, we either leave all past behind and we concentrate to what we have today: an illegal occupation of 1/3rd of Republic of Cyprus, or if we want to follow the chain of events that led us to where we are today then we have to start from the beginning, and not at some point in history that suits some.

You may very well be correct, that those who are holding onto land that is proportionately more than what they should have, do not want peace, but rather a partition, in order to keep their "ill" gotten gains. If they don't have a better offer, that's exactly what will happen. Lets take away their "FEARS" and give them "TRUST" in "ONE CYPRUS" for them to abandon their other dreams.


Unfortunately in the materialistic word we live in very few people will find anything a better offer than a big increase to their property.

Today is 2006 and Cyprus part of EU. If TCs were fearing for their lives then after the gates were opened non of them would dare to cross. However reality proves that there is no such fear. What TCs fear is that they can lose the disproportionate gains they have and their dream of having a separate part of Cyprus as almost exclusively their own.

As for your other solution, to wait for the "change of power", in order to have yet another war and re-create all of today's problems, once again from the beginning.


A war can solve the problems of only one side and only temporarily. Therefore I truly hope this circle of blood will finally stop and all Cypriots start to respect each other and stop trying to gain on the loss of another. Unfortunately, human nature - the element of greediness in this case - almost guarantees that if one one side has way more power than another it will always try to force the weaker side into submission. The outrageous demands that the Turkish side insists upon for the last 32 years in an example of this.

Now if this balance of power is reversed before a solution is found, then inevitably it will be the turn of TCs to suffer by the outrageous demands that GCs will then be able to afford.

However the balance of power could also shift partially, which will bring an equilibrium between the power of the two sides. This is probably ideal, since no side will be able to force another to accept unfair things and therefore the end result will be a fair solution for everybody, where nobody gains on the loss of another, with democracy and human rights for all Cypriots without discrimination.

Of course it would be really nice to have today what we could have with this equilibrium. Unfortunately reality proves that the side which is powerful will use all its power to its advantage without sacrificing any for the sake of fairness. Therefore the shift of balance of power is required.
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Postby Kikapu » Sat Sep 30, 2006 6:44 pm

Piratis wrote:For me and the majority of the population today, 1960 is as much part of history as 1900 or 1800 is. So why take that point in history, and not, for example 1974? .


Because 1960 is an important date that we can all relate to. You see, on this date a child (nation) was born to 2 parents. We were all suppose to raise this child (nation) by what ever it took, in order to grow and become an independent thinking adult. As parent, we were suppose to give this child (nation) everything we had, beg, steal or borrow. We can all relate to this date, because we have failed in raising this child (nation) in a 2 parent home. This child (nation) was raised in a dis-functional single parent home, staying part of the time at different homes. That's why this date, 1960 is important, because we are the parents of this dis-functional "child" (Cyprus).
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Postby Pyrpolizer » Sat Sep 30, 2006 10:09 pm

Viewpoint wrote: Partition is what we live today, how can you say it failed. It only fails when TCs want an alternative or can see a better future being united. The fact that this partition is not recognized does not change the fact that partition exists and will continue to exist until a time we can find a solution. We have proven we cannot and my belief is that we will continue partitioned for a very long time to come.


So if partition has not failed, then why should we find a solution?

Look VP we all know in this forum you like the present situation and you would like it even more if some miracle happens and you get recognition. You will even become thrilled nuts if the Gcs themselves sign you their acceptance.

This will never happen, so your partition dream will always remain what currently is: half a dream half a nightmare.
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Postby rolo » Sat Sep 30, 2006 10:51 pm

Ok lets imagine Cyprus goes back to pre 74 -

Will tcs go back to enclaves? dont think so....


What happens if it kicks off again. There hasnt been peace on this island for 000's of years - why is peace now so attainable.


There appear to more than enough posters on this forum alone to start another war.


Best solution is a fed, then in time hopefully gc and tc can start to mix, first maybe on social grounds, like sport (God forbid - football - well maybe not football) then business, then maybe partnership and cross green-linel investments, then politically etc etc. This can only be achieved if both peoples want it to work.

Rome wasnt built in a day and evidently Cyprus takes much longer still. It will come slowly slowly, and only if there is mutual security and respect, ans by the will of the people, not politicians alone- This was the sixty's problem no respect and even less security.

Anyway i dont see this generation being ready to solve it yet, except that is for this bloke, God bless him. Check him out at:

http://www.cyprus-mail.com/news/main.ph ... 5&cat_id=1
Last edited by rolo on Sat Sep 30, 2006 10:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Viewpoint » Sat Sep 30, 2006 10:52 pm

We are only looking for ways of uniting but I have been clear and honest about what I believe to be right solution, dont I have the right to air my views or should I just conform to what you dictate? We have had 46 years to try and build a united island and we have failed miserably what do you find it so difficult to admit, its the truth. All your arguements are based on failures and the current developments back up my belief that both sides do not have the vision or desire to unite or we would have done this many years ago. Nothing will change until we can see something better than we have now and if we feel that uniting with GCs is not the right move for us we to will vote NO and request that you respect our decision.

As for the current situation you are right I would much rather live the rest of my life amongest my own as a king in my own shack than in a palace as a servent. Im sure you get my drift.
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Postby andri_cy » Sat Sep 30, 2006 11:02 pm

Viewpoint wrote:We are only looking for ways of uniting but I have been clear and honest about what I believe to be right solution, dont I have the right to air my views or should I just conform to what you dictate? We have had 46 years to try and build a united island and we have failed miserably what do you find it so difficult to admit, its the truth. All your arguements are based on failures and the current developments back up my belief that both sides do not have the vision or desire to unite or we would have done this many years ago. Nothing will change until we can see something better than we have now and if we feel that uniting with GCs is not the right move for us we to will vote NO and request that you respect our decision.

As for the current situation you are right I would much rather live the rest of my life amongest my own as a king in my own shack than in a palace as a servent. Im sure you get my drift.



Actually we never had 46 years. We had 14 years. The last 32 you have been in the north and we have been in the south. I do not think that 14 years of basically living together under no ruler was ever gonna be enough for things to fall into place. We needed more time. Both times were doing things wrong and both are to blame. So lets not start that whole genocide bull again and lets concentrate on the fact that we never had a chance once Turkey came and stayed. In the whole 1960-1974 era no one was innocent so we all should stop playing the victim roles that we have been on this forum and in real life for ages. The TCs were living in enclaves for a long time and thats bad cause partially we caused that. in 1974 lost of GCs lost their lives, their dignity and their homes and thats bad because Turkeys caused that. As long as you come on the forum and find excuses why either was ok nothing is going to happen. We all need to stand up and take responsibility.
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Postby Viewpoint » Sat Sep 30, 2006 11:13 pm

14 years of trying to live together and 32 years of trying to find a solution of how we can reunite, whats the success lever Andr,, why are people so blind this marriage aint gonna work.
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Postby Piratis » Sat Sep 30, 2006 11:30 pm

There is no "marriage" Viewpoint. What we have is an independent sovereign country part of which is illegally occupied by a foreign country.

Because 1960 is an important date that we can all relate to. You see, on this date a child (nation) was born to 2 parents.


I don't agree with your analogy. People have been living on this island for 1000s of years. If you want to make the "parent" - "child" analogy for the 1960 agreements then the parent were the British, with some input from Turkey and Greece. Cypriots were not even asked. They were just told "take it or leave it".
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