Cyprus-Forum.com

[andri_cy]

Yea what do you mean less rights?

[Viewpoint]

Yea what do you mean less rights?

Do TCs and GCs have the same rights today?

[andri_cy]

Are the GC's oppressing you?

[loneforce]

Just a suggestion,
It would help the dialog move faster if you say why you think the TC have less rights than the GC rather than asking.

That aside I would like to pose a different view on you to consider. This is for both GC and TC. You seem to have accepted that the two (opposing) groups are the TC and the GC.

Do try to think out of the box. .

I propose to you that the problems between the two communities are created by small groups of people in both communities and from external politics.

We all know that mob mentality defies logical thinking and is based on emotional reactions, thus it is very easy to provoke and control!
Both sides accuse each other for "having a secret plan" to cause trouble on the island, either to wipe out the other side or to divide the island. It is therefore very easy to get either of the two communities to make mistakes against the other community. There is no group of people that does not have hot tempered people, frustrated, etc. Just some rummors and news articles are enough to make noise and start the trouble.

Most people want to live a peacefull life, and prosper, raise their children. No family man would dare send his children to war. Nobody really wants trouble.

Appart from that a reunification of the island would mean significant benefits for the majority of the population! Such as:
- cheaper land for the GC. Most GC will not be able to affort a house soon!
- Better financial prospects for the TC
- Cooperation and a more stable situation in the island will encourage faster economic development.

Why then do we manage to fight when we have so much to earn together? We need to find ways to live together! We need to do this by ourselves, without Greece and Turkey. Only then we will be able to reach an acceptable settlement, a settlement fair to everyones eyes.

It makes me sad to see all kinds of foreigners buy our land and appreciate it so much, while all we get is a few dollars in our pockets, which are worth nothing since they take them back by increasing the oil prices etc. We have become greedy, but our children will pay for our mistakes, as we have made them poorer.

Reading a few communication books and negotiation books will give you a better idea of what is really happening. When each side is just trying to get its demands through, and neither side really trying to listen to the others needs, then there is no way a viable settlement can be reached.
When one side has "secret agendas", trying to achieve its goals without putting them on the table, a settlement is never reached! A "secret agenda" does not give the opportunity to the other side to propose to you true solutions to your true problems. Compromise is impossible to reach when secret agendas are in place!

The GC will of course say that the TC's secret agenta is to divide the island, The TC will say that the GC's secret agenda is to dominate the island!

That's why I think negotiations performed so far have been futile. I also believe that politicians know this, they know that they are not ready to compromise, so they are trying to win in the international political arena as much as they can.

We have a past, but we need to live in the present. Blaming each other will only keep us traped in the past. We need to forget the domination or division templates. We need to focus on HOW and WHEN we can achieve an environment of fairness and freedom for all people.

Laws can be there as guidelines but they will protect neither side when when there is unfairness. The laws may protect you but the volcano will explode if a situation continues to be unfair. Thats why we need to target the hearts of people and give them what they want. It has nothing to do with laws and treaties and politics.

long post, sorry enough said

[Kikapu]

Just a suggestion,
It would help the dialog move faster if you say why you think the TC have less rights than the GC rather than asking.

That aside I would like to pose a different view on you to consider. This is for both GC and TC. You seem to have accepted that the two (opposing) groups are the TC and the GC.

Do try to think out of the box. .

I propose to you that the problems between the two communities are created by small groups of people in both communities and from external politics.

We all know that mob mentality defies logical thinking and is based on emotional reactions, thus it is very easy to provoke and control!
Both sides accuse each other for "having a secret plan" to cause trouble on the island, either to wipe out the other side or to divide the island. It is therefore very easy to get either of the two communities to make mistakes against the other community. There is no group of people that does not have hot tempered people, frustrated, etc. Just some rummors and news articles are enough to make noise and start the trouble.

Most people want to live a peacefull life, and prosper, raise their children. No family man would dare send his children to war. Nobody really wants trouble.

Appart from that a reunification of the island would mean significant benefits for the majority of the population! Such as:
- cheaper land for the GC. Most GC will not be able to affort a house soon!
- Better financial prospects for the TC
- Cooperation and a more stable situation in the island will encourage faster economic development.

Why then do we manage to fight when we have so much to earn together? We need to find ways to live together! We need to do this by ourselves, without Greece and Turkey. Only then we will be able to reach an acceptable settlement, a settlement fair to everyones eyes.

It makes me sad to see all kinds of foreigners buy our land and appreciate it so much, while all we get is a few dollars in our pockets, which are worth nothing since they take them back by increasing the oil prices etc. We have become greedy, but our children will pay for our mistakes, as we have made them poorer.

Reading a few communication books and negotiation books will give you a better idea of what is really happening. When each side is just trying to get its demands through, and neither side really trying to listen to the others needs, then there is no way a viable settlement can be reached.
When one side has "secret agendas", trying to achieve its goals without putting them on the table, a settlement is never reached! A "secret agenda" does not give the opportunity to the other side to propose to you true solutions to your true problems. Compromise is impossible to reach when secret agendas are in place!

The GC will of course say that the TC's secret agenta is to divide the island, The TC will say that the GC's secret agenda is to dominate the island!

That's why I think negotiations performed so far have been futile. I also believe that politicians know this, they know that they are not ready to compromise, so they are trying to win in the international political arena as much as they can.

We have a past, but we need to live in the present. Blaming each other will only keep us traped in the past. We need to forget the domination or division templates. We need to focus on HOW and WHEN we can achieve an environment of fairness and freedom for all people.

Laws can be there as guidelines but they will protect neither side when when there is unfairness. The laws may protect you but the volcano will explode if a situation continues to be unfair. Thats why we need to target the hearts of people and give them what they want. It has nothing to do with laws and treaties and politics.

long post, sorry enough said

Loneforce,

You make very good points and suggestions in your first post here.

I believe most people see it as you do, however, the problem that divides the two communities comes down to "FEAR" and "TRUST". Most are afraid to take a chance on each other, because they have fears and lack of trust from the past events. I can't say I blame anyone feeling the way they do. I do blame however, elected leaders not doing enough to comfort all those concerns and bring about a solution.

Some want to play the numbers game. Well, we are the majority so therefore, we should have this much of this and that. The other side is the minority, but does not want to be in their own country with fears of being dominated.

If all Cypriots can see the benefits of being UNITED rather than being DIVIDED, we can go a long way. I agree with you that, as time goes by, both sides will be at blame for selling their country down the drain, or to the foreigners, which ever comes first, the end result will be the same, because everyone is looking after their own interest, and not the interest of, the island of CYPRUS.

[Piratis]

Do TCs and GCs have the same rights today?

Today the illegal Turkish occupation of the northern part of Cyprus stops both GCs and TCs from having their full rights. Greek Cypriots are even refused their basic human rights.

however, the problem that divides the two communities comes down to "FEAR" and "TRUST".

I wouldn't say so. What divides the two communities is that the TCs are (illegally) given way more than what proportionately belongs to them and are also given the hope that somehow one day this illegality will be legalized which would allow them to fully take advantage what they currently control.

Before the Ottoman rule Cyprus had many other conquerors. Those conquerors had their own people on the island to run and exploit it (army, elites etc). Those people were of course a higher class than their slaves, the Greek Cypriots. However when each one of those conquerors lost the island to the next conqueror, those people either left the island or were integrated to the rest of the society.

The Ottomans also brought their own people to Cyprus when they conquered it, and they also forced several Greek Cypriots to switch to Islam, since Muslims were enjoying several privileges (e.g. much lower taxes) and were treated much better than Christians.
The difference is that when the Ottoman rule ended, a sizable Muslim minority stayed in Cyprus which continued to believe that they should maintain their super-privileges, and that they somehow can not be just equal citizens with the "inferior" Christians. This belief was re-enforced to them by the British (who loved divide and rule tactics) and also by Turkey since she needed Turkish Cypriots for their plans to re-capture Cyprus or at least part of it. At the same time a new Greek Cypriot nationalism was created to fight for the rights of just their own community.

That is the root of our problem in Cyprus. That instead of having equal people, we have two conflicting groups with conflicting interests (or at least thats what they are made to believe).

The problem in Cyprus will be permanently solved only if we all accept that all Cypriots are equal regardless of their language, religion, ethnic background etc, and we learn to respect each other. This will allow Cyprus to become truly democratic and all of its citizens will be able to enjoy all of their human rights without racist discriminations.

If that does not happen, and we continue to have two conflicting groups, then the problem will not end no matter what agreements we sign.

The great majority of Greek Cypriots have accepted long time ago that union with Greece would not serve the interests of Turkish Cypriots, and they have therefore abandoned that idea. It is time for Turkish Cypriots to abandon the idea of partition, and to accept that they are part of Cypriots in one united Cyprus, and not a separate entity.

[Pyrpolizer]

miltiades you have every right to your opinions but the last 46 years have proved me right dont you think? How many more years will it take you to realize that it will not work with these people, We have tried time and time again the mentality is the same.. nothing has changed when will you see this fact and accept that partition is the only real solution which can be agreed to by both sides. Would you rather have the last 32 years or the 14 prior to that? I know which one I would choose. In order to give up something you have to be shown something better, an alternative that will make your life better, this I cannot see for me, my children or my community.

During those 46 years 2 things failed. 1)enosis 2) partition
Claiming that partition is the only solution is an oxymoron, because it has already failed for 46 years or for 32+14 (chose whichever you like).

The solution will ONLY come when the TC leadership and Turkey realise that partition either real or disguised is NOT possible. Period.

[Viewpoint]

Partition is what we live today, how can you say it failed. It only fails when TCs want an alternative or can see a better future being united. The fact that this partition is not recognized does not change the fact that partition exists and will continue to exist until a time we can find a solution. We have proven we cannot and my belief is that we will continue partitioned for a very long time to come.

[Natty]

propose to you that the problems between the two communities are created by small groups of people in both communities and from external politics.

We all know that mob mentality defies logical thinking and is based on emotional reactions, thus it is very easy to provoke and control!
Both sides accuse each other for "having a secret plan" to cause trouble on the island, either to wipe out the other side or to divide the island. It is therefore very easy to get either of the two communities to make mistakes against the other community. There is no group of people that does not have hot tempered people, frustrated, etc. Just some rummors and news articles are enough to make noise and start the trouble.

I completely agree!

[loneforce]

So dear lecturer according to you partition has not failed.
You see my friend you cannot claim one thing and do another. People with honour, if they believe that their cause is just, they remain focused to it, rather than try to earn whatever they can.

Should the TC's want partition they shouldn't vote yes to the Anan plan, nor should they want to be part of the EU-Cyprus. The current EU-Cyprus state was build with the money and the hard work of the GC's, and now the TC's smell the money and want a piece of it. Nothing comes free in this world, so if the TC's want an independent state they should fight for it rather than walking towards wherever the smell of money is.
It is my impression and correct me if I am wrong that most TC's are rich. The TC cars I see in the south are high class cars, and the photos of TC's on hi5.com show something more than prosperity. Then again if you include the settlers then the TC economy looks quite bad!


And a comment on a much earlier post by rolo:

There was an ideal that by keeping tcs frustrated, in their enclaves, making their lives tough, breaking their morale the tcs would have little choice but to leave cyprus altogether in order to better themselves

The end result of the Turkish invation was that half the TC's went to the UK and the TC's are now a minority in their own state. So much for the just Turkish state.