Cyprus-Forum.com

[kookookaachoo]

I see. So Piratis is your excuse for what the Greeks did to the Turks, is what the Ottoman Empire did from the 1500's? Not that there is much of an excuse for that other than Civilisation itself wasn't as developed as it was in the 1960's.

Rolo - I see your point, and thanks for the informative nature of it. One thing that stands out is...

"let’s get this into perspective tcs were not slaves to gc"

But as you say yourself the British PM goes on to say..

""Unless Makarios can bring himself to treat the turkish Cypriots as human beings he is inviting partition"

So I dont understand? Either the Greeks were treating the Turks like dog crap, or they wern't.

[kookookaachoo]

I agree Natty, genocide is a strong word to use. You say genocide and you think of the Jews, where millions were killed. This isn't always true, a genocide could be (hypothetically speaking) the only 5 purple people on Earth are killed because of there colour. Genocide also would indicate that it was just one side doing all the killing, which from what I have read isn't entirely true in this case.

What is obvious to me at this point, is the Greeks didn't really want any Turks on the island. They wanted the island for themselves. How they went about it seems very sly. I read somewhere at one point there was some form of government and all TC's were not allowed to have positions in this government (not sure how close that is to the truth..?)

Hey, I don't think it's very fair to say that the Greek Cypriots plan was to 'genocide' the Turkish Cypriots. In all the sources I've read, only one being from a GC, the fighting that occured between the years, 1963-67, (or even in 1958) has always been described as inter-communal fighting, and nothing else. When I look at the facts and figures from that period, it just doesn't make sense to me, that people can use such a strong word like 'genocide' to describe what happened....Please don't get me wrong, I don't deny that the Turkish Cypriots suffered during that period, but I don't believe that it was ever one sided, and that the Greek Cypriots just decided one day that they hated all TC's and wanted them dead...The evidence, in my eyes, just doesn't back up the claim...(if that makes sense..)

I found this from that page Pirates found, I think to a certain extent it kinda shows what happened...The interesting thing is that, in no paragraph does it mention the word 'genocide'...

Cyprus
Intercommunal Violence
The atmosphere on the island was tense. On December 21, 1963, serious violence erupted in Nicosia when a Greek Cypriot police patrol, ostensibly checking identification documents, stopped a Turkish Cypriot couple on the edge of the Turkish quarter. A hostile crowd gathered, shots were fired, and two Turkish Cypriots were killed. As the news spread, members of the underground organizations began firing and taking hostages. North of Nicosia, Turkish forces occupied a strong position at St. Hilarion Castle, dominating the road to Kyrenia on the northern coast. The road became a principal combat area as both sides fought to control it. Much intercommunal fighting occurred in Nicosia along the line separating the Greek and Turkish quarters of the city (known later as the Green Line). Turkish Cypriots were not concentrated in one area, but lived throughout the island, making their position precarious. Vice-President Küçük and Turkish Cypriot ministers and members of the House of Representatives ceased participating in the government.

In January 1964, after an inconclusive conference in London among representatives of Britain, Greece, Turkey, and the two Cypriot communities, UN Secretary General U Thant, at the request of the Cyprus government, sent a special representative to the island. After receiving a firsthand report in February, the Security Council authorized a peace-keeping force under the direction of the secretary general. Advance units reached Cyprus in March, and by May the United Nations Peace-keeping Force in Cyprus (UNFICYP) totaled about 6,500 troops. Originally authorized for a three-month period, the force, at decreased strength, was still in position in the early 1990s.

Severe intercommunal fighting occurred in March and April 1964. When the worst of the fighting was over, Turkish Cypriots--sometimes of their own volition and at other times forced by the TMT--began moving from isolated rural areas and mixed villages into enclaves......

Something which I recently found out, something which is never mentioned, was that during that period, some Greek Cypriots were also displaced, although perhaps not on the scale of the Turkish Cypriots, who were the numerical minority......

Peace!

[Natty]

i believe that it was true as i know someone who was there in the capacity of british correspondant for the newspapers and he has said that the Turkish cypriots were starved in their enclaves and that the GC government wanted them out of the way as they didnt want to share power and wanted cyprus to be part of greeceand totally greek in all its ethnicity.. so i say deal with it and find out more for your selves. Because i would put money on the fact it is true.. read news archives from that time and you will get a more ballanced picture than the one you have got now with the propaganda..

Hi Unique Earthing and kookookachoo, I can't say I entirely agree...Most of my family lived through that time, and it just doesnt add up...

Peace!

[Kikapu]

i believe that it was true as i know someone who was there in the capacity of british correspondant for the newspapers and he has said that the Turkish cypriots were starved in their enclaves ..

Hi Unique Earthing and kookookachoo, I can't say I entirely agree...Most of my family lived through that time, and it just doesnt add up...

Peace!

Natty,

I don't know what the Greek Cypriots were eating 1963-64 conflict, but I remember having to que up with a rations card to get some rice or beans to take home to be cooked. I don't remember starving really , but then again, I don't know how little the adults ate to make sure the kids did not go to bed hungry.

[rolo]

What is obvious to me at this point, is the Greeks didn't really want any Turks on the island. They wanted the island for themselves. How they went about it seems very sly.

How they went about it seems very sly.


With this phrase you have hit the nail bang dead central on its head.
This was the most frustrating aspect of the whole thing, because the whole system indeed designed to frustrate and break the tcs will to stay in Cyprus. Turkey would not have tolerated a sustained an open armed attack on tcs by Makarios’s men. This had to be avoided, failure to do so would have been an invitation to Turkish intervention and partition. I think Makarios was the only gc on Cyprus who took a Turkish invasion force and its consequences seriously. He was careful to distance himself from all forms of violence. He had to be seen whiter than white. Outwardly he tried to play the angel, and whilst he was able to play the saint to the gc population he failed to convince or impress the more worldly-wise politicians such as The British PM.

Now what could any outside power actually do to redress the balance of power in Cyprus after 63?
What crimes against the state had the GC govt actually committed?

1) The violence of 63? The gc govt distanced itself from that and initially claimed it was a Tc uprising which the govt forces successfully put down.

2) The fact that the tcs lived a suppressed existence in their enclaves? Well did the tcs of their own free will not go there?

3) Tc had no parliamentary representation? The tc deputies boycotted their positions in the Cyprus govt of their own free will.

4) The armed attacks by gc militia of 67 on a tc village where more than twenty tc villagers were killed?
Again Makarios distanced himself from that too, saying it was the work of General Grivas. Makarios then sent Grivas packing to Greece.


If Makarios was serious about showing remorse for this action Grivas should have stood trial for this attack.

The Gc govt had an answer for every act carried out against the tcs. According to the 60 constitution all new laws required the signature of the Vice President (a TC), but they were able to justify passing laws without tc approval by some clause or other.


Now the point about tcs not being slaves. What I mean it was not a regime like Apartheid South Africa or pre civil war Southern USA. Tcs did not have to ride in the back of the bus, give up their seats for gcs or mop the kitchen floors for their gc masters. There were no concentration or work camps. The tcs and gcs basically did not mix. Tcs stayed in their parts of the larger towns, and stayed in their villages. Gcs did the same.


Like you say it was indeed a very sly. My belief was that Makarios played it so well that nothing could have prevented him achieving his long term plan of etbnic cleansing or assimilation of tcs with total gc rule in Cyprus. Turkey understood Makarios’s ploy so did Britain and so did Kissinger. I cant help feeling that Turkey and The USA both had a hand in the coup of 74.


Just another comment Nicos Samson, who was to have been installed as president had the coup succeeded, was later the subject of a half hour documentary, accounting his role in the 74 coup. Shown on British TV, he proudly boasted.

“Had the turkish army delayed their invasion a few more days there would not have been one turk left on Cyprus”.


I would also like to point out that most gcs are good hearted people and were powerless to stand up against the Eoka men or to be seen not to support/vote for Makarios who was not only a national hero in the struggle for independence, but also Head of The extremely powerful Greek Cypriot Church. The gcs just got caught up in that old old dream that Cyprus was well on its way to becoming Greek. All that stood between them and their dream was a hundred thousand or so tcs. After taking on The Mighty British Empire would the tcs really be much of a problem?


Ive gone on again and probably offended half of Cyprus……. as you do - so I’ll end it.

[Piratis]

There seems to be an agreement between the Turks and some of the British, something which is not a surprise considering that these two nations were the ones that last enslaved Cypriots for 100s of years and who still occupy part of our island and maintain huge armies here against the will of the great majority of the Cypriot people (and also totally illegally in the case of Turkey).

The fact is that while the British (who should have been 1000s of miles away) have ruled the island for more than a century, and the Turks who again came to Cyprus by force were ruling Cyprus for 3 centuries, apparently for them Cyprus being ruled by Cypriots in a democratic way was something unacceptable.

So Piratis is your excuse for what the Greeks did to the Turks, is what the Ottoman Empire did from the 1500's?

I simply gave you of an example of a true Genocide. The Turks have killed 20.000 in Nicosia alone, they acted in a similar way in Famagusta, and killed many thousand people in other towns as well. Considering that the population of Cyprus at the time was barely more than 100.000, The Turks have killed between 1/3rd and 1/2nd of the total population. Now thats a genocide, wouldn't you agree?
When there is an intercommunal conflict and both sides have about the same number of casualties which is not more than a few 100s over a period of several years, calling that a "genocide" would be ridiculous. However if you did call it like that, then we should also say that TCs were performing a genocide against GCs during the same time. Or maybe the GC victims do not count for you?

The fact is that the Turks were committing the genocides, the killings, the ethnic cleansings and the crimes in Cyprus since the day they set their foot in Cyprus until today. And yet, they are trying to selectively find tiny parts of history were along with them, GCs were committing crimes as well, and they so easily forget both their own crimes during the same period they accuse us about, but also all their other crimes before and after the only period they can apparently remember.

Piratis and Natty what you have to try and understand it that although the genocide of the Turkish Cypriots was unsuccessful this does not mean that it was not a real threat against a smaller weaker community.

There was never such a threat apart from inside you own propaganda, who had as a sole aim to help you achieve your dream of partition. The fact is that both sides had about the same number of casualties during the intercommunal conflict and you can not say that a few 100s of dead within the TC community amounts as a "genocide attempt" while the few 100s of dead among the GC community does not.

The gcs just got caught up in that old old dream that Cyprus was well on its way to becoming Greek. All that stood between them and their dream was a hundred thousand or so tcs. After taking on The Mighty British Empire would the tcs really be much of a problem?

In fact "integration into an independent State" should have been an available option for Cypriots to democratically choose from according to UN resolution 1541 about De-colonization.
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpi/decolonizat ... ration.htm

Unfortunately the colonialists didn't allow Cypriots to decide about the destiny of their own island, but instead they forced them to accept a semi-independence with a constitution that the British themselves prepared and no alternative given.
That constitution was giving to the 18% TC minority things like 30% of government jobs and 40% of the army positions, a veto power in many things and a ton of other racist and unfair towards the Greek Cypriots parameters.

These unfair, undemocratic parameters were what Greek Cypriots wanted to change. However when changes to the constitution were proposed in 1963, the TCs under the directions of Turkey, withdrew from the government without even bothering to discuss the proposals and started to put into action their plans for partitioning Cyprus. Of course GCs responded and as a result TC also suffered and had casualties during that period. However those 5 years (63-68 ) that TCs suffered (along with GCs), are a drop in the ocean compared to the centuries of oppression, the genocides, the ethnic cleansings and the illegal occupations that the Turks committed and continue to commit against us as we speak.

Those that can only see the tree and not the forest are intentionally blind since apparently it suits them that way. Their excuses however are not taken seriously by any important body, which is why their cheap excuses didn't stop the UN from declaring the occupation and the pseudo state of "trnc" as illegal, the ECHR to rule in favor of our refugees, and the fact that no other country except Turkey recognizes the puppet state that Turkey created on the northern part of Republic of Cyprus. Beyond that you can say your lame excuses and selectively remember history when you talk between you. Have fun.

[kookookaachoo]

There seems to be an agreement between the Turks and some of the British, something which is not a surprise considering that these two nations were the ones that last enslaved Cypriots for 100s of years and who still occupy part of our island and maintain huge armies here against the will of the great majority of the Cypriot people (and also totally illegally in the case of Turkey).

Not at all Piratis, you have got to stop thinking everybody is out to get you and your fellow Greeks. It just isn't the case. It is probably the opposite, and people sympathise with your cause. But you have to go about it the right way. For me this is similar to the British in Northern Ireland in some small points.

I simply gave you of an example of a true Genocide. The Turks have killed 20.000 in Nicosia alone, they acted in a similar way in Famagusta, and killed many thousand people in other towns as well. Considering that the population of Cyprus at the time was barely more than 100.000, The Turks have killed between 1/3rd and 1/2nd of the total population. Now thats a genocide, wouldn't you agree?

Agreed. But you are talking about a time where people were so much less civilized, wouldn't you agree? Things were worked out in blood. Who is to say if Turkey hadn't intervened that the Greeks wouldn't have gone on to commit similar atrocities. The fact was Turkey was big, and bad enough to stick up for it's people at the time.

Also on that note, I think religion in those days was a major factor. Things like ethnic cleansing went on a lot. Not that it's any excuse, but people need to learn from their history and use it as a positive, not as an negative excuse.

The fact is that the Turks were committing the genocides, the killings, the ethnic cleansings and the crimes in Cyprus since the day they set their foot in Cyprus until today. And yet, they are trying to selectively find tiny parts of history were along with them, GCs were committing crimes as well, and they so easily forget both their own crimes during the same period they accuse us about, but also all their other crimes before and after the only period they can apparently remember.

Again I sympathise with that but I disagree with your main point. A country today cannot be held responsible for it's ancestors actions hundreds of years ago. 40 years is much sharper in most peoples heads.

However those 5 years (63-68 ) that TCs suffered (along with GCs), are a drop in the ocean compared to the centuries of oppression, the genocides, the ethnic cleansings and the illegal occupations that the Turks committed and continue to commit against us as we speak.

Again, I think you cannot compare the two. That is not a denial of it not happening, but in those years Empires wanted the whole world. They didn't want any other races and religions to exist. It may have been after Hitler, that people realised this shouldn't be the case and everyone deserves there rights. It still isn't the case in some areas of the world of course. Do you think Alexander the Great got where he did by just claiming land, and giving free food away to the peasants? No, he killed and murdered to get what he wanted. It was deemed more acceptable (wrong word I know) in those days.

Those that can only see the tree and not the forest are intentionally blind since apparently it suits them that way. Their excuses however are not taken seriously by any important body, which is why their cheap excuses didn't stop the UN from declaring the occupation and the pseudo state of "trnc" as illegal, the ECHR to rule in favor of our refugees, and the fact that no other country except Turkey recognizes the puppet state that Turkey created on the northern part of Republic of Cyprus. Beyond that you can say your lame excuses and selectively remember history when you talk between you. Have fun.

Well in reply to that, all I can say is to the Turks I have spoken to it is a small, very small price to pay for your life and your rights in modern day.

[kookookaachoo]

Just another comment Nicos Samson, who was to have been installed as president had the coup succeeded, was later the subject of a half hour documentary, accounting his role in the 74 coup. Shown on British TV, he proudly boasted.

“Had the turkish army delayed their invasion a few more days there would not have been one turk left on Cyprus”.

Heehee, Rolo you make some very good points indeed. Some interesting reading, so thank you.

Regarding your point above, if the interview was aired (haven't seen it myself..) then surely that puts more weight on the Turkish cause for an invasion. If so why is it classed as illegal? illegal because it wasn't on Britains or the UN's terms? or illegal because a country stood up for its people? Makes no sense

[Piratis]

Not at all Piratis, you have got to stop thinking everybody is out to get you and your fellow Greeks.

I didn't say everybody. The good allies of Turkey that overlook its crimes and support her regardless are few and very specific (the same ones that support similar crimes by Israel)

Agreed. But you are talking about a time where people were so much less civilized, wouldn't you agree? Things were worked out in blood. Who is to say if Turkey hadn't intervened that the Greeks wouldn't have gone on to commit similar atrocities. The fact was Turkey was big, and bad enough to stick up for it's people at the time.

Anybody can imagine whatever he wants. However the facts are that Greek Cypriots had never committed anything even remotely close to the atrocities committed by the Turks against us. You can invade countries, and violate human rights of 100s of thousands of people based not on facts but on your wild imagination.

Also on that note, I think religion in those days was a major factor. Things like ethnic cleansing went on a lot. Not that it's any excuse, but people need to learn from their history and use it as a positive, not as an negative excuse.

The last ethnic cleansing in Cyprus happened just 32 years ago when 200.000 people, the majority of the residents, were ethnically cleansed from their homeland. Unfortunately Turkey didn't change much since the middle ages.

Also the Turks are the only ones who are trying to use history (a tiny selectively chosen part of it) to excuse their illegalities of today. This is actually the reason why we are discussing this now. If the Turks didn't insist on those lame excuses their would not be a need to discuss history in this way.

Again I sympathise with that but I disagree with your main point. A country today cannot be held responsible for it's ancestors actions hundreds of years ago. 40 years is much sharper in most peoples heads.

Hundreds of years ago was the beginning and they continue until today. Today is not that long ago, is it?
We were under the Persians, the Franks and many other in our history. Today though we don't have a problem with them. Out problem with the Turks is not what they did 100s of years ago, but that they continue doing it until today.

Well in reply to that, all I can say is to the Turks I have spoken to it is a small, very small price to pay for your life and your rights in modern day.

So if I claim that my life and rights are threatened by you would that give me the right to kill you or steal your property?

The fact is that Turkey used their minority here as an excuse to occupy part of Cyprus for its own strategic reasons. (something admitted by Turkish Generals in the past).

Hitler (that you talked about before) did something similar with Czechoslovakia when he illegally occupied this country to supposedly protect the German minority there. There are the excuses and then there are the real reasons.

[miltiades]

IT IS NOT OFTEN THAT I AGREE WITH PIRATIS.
On this subject , ie T/Cs forced against their will in enclaves , the notion that had Turkey not intervened the T/Cs would have been annihilated , the comments some with second hand knowledge , and the ridiculous assumption that the G/Cs were out to eliminate their compatriots from Cyprus . The fanatics on the Greek site would eliminate anyone who did not share their views , and the fanatics on the Turkish site scared the shit out of anyone who would dare remain amongst the Greeks. T/Cs would remain locked behind the Famagusta walls under orders from their authorities, they happily came out during the day to get to their workplaces but by evening they HAD to withdraw within the walled city .
Genocide in Cyprus , what an absolute bullshit. The Cypriots are one of the most peaceful loving people on earth , family orientated , considerate and kind. Genocide talk is preposterous , a figment of imagination.
The likes of VP and uniqueearthing , herself a depressed frustrated individual who detests the Cypriots , Greeks and Turks and VP who , as well educated as he is , as well as very precise and reasonable at times , ie property issues , has time and time again made his views clear on where he stands .He aspires for Turkey to absorb the occupied part and believes this to be the only solution.

Finaly Piratis , I would be extremely pleased to see you post that you consider the T/Cs , just as I do , your compatriots and let the VPs of Cyprus realise that we the Cypriots will win at end.