Cyprus-Forum.com

[Viewpoint]

Pyrpolizer

The status of "trnc" will remain unaltered i.e unrecognised, the status of RoC will remain unaltered i.e recognised to include all geographical area of Cyprus but with Aquis suspended at the occupied, etc etc etc. Nothing will change.I personally don’t see any pluses or minuses for anybody in this. Besides Turkey needs Cyprus’s vote for each and every step in her EU road. In this respect she must take a Cyprus Embassy, have Cypriot specialists on the chapters she discusses to check and approve her progress etc etc. Cyprus cannot give her vote with blind eye, nobody can, it is like ridiculing herself. Didn’t Turkey think of all these before signing her agreement, is she totally absolutely paranoid??

A lot would change as Turkey would be accepting a GC government in the "RoC" which by not recognizing she does not have to deal with. Turkey had previous warned the EU of the dangers of taking a divided island into the EU and that she would not recognize the GC run government until a solution was found where the TCs were also included.
Its a bit like recognizing that you are in the wrong and that you will be forced to move your troops from an EU country and that is a very difficult step for Turkey to take without a solution.

Yes we agree on the first part but I never concluded that the RoC should forget about a veto now and excercise it later. In fact this is what I said earlier:
The point for us at present is if we do not use our EU leverage NOW we lose it for ever.
The reason for this, there would be no excuse for us to excercise the 2nd veto in a row when in fact we did not excercise the first. And absolutely no excuse to excercise the 3rd veto if we have not excercised #1 and #2. And so on and so forth.I hope you see the logic.

Sorry but I don't agree with that logic. Using your veto or objection now would only bring the process to an halt/end but saving your objection until a stage when Turkey has made considerable process and is closer to entry will in effect give your veto even more weight and make Turkey yield to your demands as they would see the light at the end of tunnel.
As a TC i only hope you use it early on so Turkey doesn't go through all the demands of the EU only to find that she will be vetoed at the very last hurdles. I think it better shes knows now that she will not make it and thus find her own way. The EU is not the be all and end all there is a big world outside of the EU where Turkey build relations to the benefit of all concerned.

What you GCs should be worried about is keeping Turkey interested in resolving things otherwise a disinterested Turkey mean status quo forever therefore cemented partition.

[pantheman]

VP, i have been reading your posts with some interest, but i have to say, you make an enourmous amount of assumptions about what Turkey would and wouldn't do.

Of course we would all like to see a united cyprus, but to be honest after 32 years of not havall of the island, i for one couldn't careless anymore if turkey was or was not interested. The reality, IMHO, is turkey can play all the political games it wants, the EU road is not going to be an easy one, but with the USA and the UK on her side sadly i feel she'll get in anyway whether we like it or not.

What really annoys me is the fact that turkey does have the cheek to want to enter the EU without recognising the RoC first. Its like getting married to some whom you do not recognise, or worse still a forced marrage.

I mean come on, first steps are always the hardest, but if turkey does not show this recognition first then we may as well all go home and turkey start looking for another partner.

Look this is reaaly as simple as buying a house, you won't sign it over until you have the money in your hand the buyer won't give you the money until you sign. So, thats why we have a solicitor in between, he gets the money and the signatures and he does the swap problem solved. Here the EU is the solicitor, turkey does the recogising (signs) RoC gives the money (no vetos) everyones happy.

What do you recockon on this logic ??

Pantheman

[Viewpoint]

pantheman Turkey has been waiting to join the Eu for over 40 years and has repeatidly warned the EU that accepting the divided and troubled island without a solution will cause the Eu and Turkey many problems. The EU with pressure from Greece still went ahead and took the Greek Cypriot South in. The EU have now realized they made a grave mistake taking a divided island in without a solution, they will be plagued with problems which I am pretty certain they could do without.

You are right I do make asssuptions about what Turkey will do we all do as none of us know for sure.
As for recognition of an island which by its own consitution is a partnership between TCs and GCs but in a defacto situation is run purely by GCs and therefore gives Turkey the right not to recognize this entity like other countires have the same right to recognize it. Turkey does not say it will not recognize it, only when a solution is found will recognition come and thats what they have been saying all along.

[MARIKKOU]

pantheman Turkey has been waiting to join the Eu for over 40 years and has repeatidly warned the EU that accepting the divided and troubled island without a solution will cause the Eu and Turkey many problems. The EU with pressure from Greece still went ahead and took the Greek Cypriot South in. The EU have now realized they made a grave mistake taking a divided island in without a solution, they will be plagued with problems which I am pretty certain they could do without.

You are right I do make asssuptions about what Turkey will do we all do as none of us know for sure.
As for recognition of an island which by its own consitution is a partnership between TCs and GCs but in a defacto situation is run purely by GCs and therefore gives Turkey the right not to recognize this entity like other countires have the same right to recognize it. Turkey does not say it will not recognize it, only when a solution is found will recognition come and thats what they have been saying all along.

Viewpoint you are full of crap

1. Who and in what capacity is Turkey in a position to offer or-able to give advice to European nations? Who ask Turkey for advice?
2. Where did you read or understand that EU made a mistake in accepting Cyprus as a member! have a look at the votes 420 for 79 against (england spain and italy) and 125 abstentions!
3. Turkey knew all along what was happening.
4. For Turkey to get the go ahead to commence negotiations Turkey knew and accepted the fact that Cyprus was one of the members of the "Club" Turkey at the time did not disputed Cyprus acceptance of "Turkey"

Mate look at yourself on the mirror first. Turkey is an occupying country!
Turkey is the bad apple in a basket of fresh crispy apples!

[Viewpoint]

MARIKKOU who rattled your cage?

Viewpoint you are full of crap

So i wont wait for a Christmas present, don't think ill lose any sleep over it.

1. Who and in what capacity is Turkey in a position to offer or-able to give advice to European nations? Who ask Turkey for advice?

It was warnings about the problems that lay ahead, Turkey has had relations with EU states for over 40 years like it or not they do take notice.

2. Where did you read or understand that EU made a mistake in accepting Cyprus as a member! have a look at the votes 420 for 79 against (england spain and italy) and 125 abstentions!

Do you recall obviously not the trick you used with Greece about blocking the EU budget, ring any bells?

. Turkey knew all along what was happening.

You are right and they gave out warning saying that it will create big problems if a divided country is taken into EU and they have been proved right.

4. For Turkey to get the go ahead to commence negotiations Turkey knew and accepted the fact that Cyprus was one of the members of the "Club" Turkey at the time did not disputed Cyprus acceptance of "Turkey"

Was to late by then they had to accept to proceed and now they are paying the price with all these additional problems with the south.

Mate look at yourself on the mirror first. Turkey is an occupying country!
Turkey is the bad apple in a basket of fresh crispy apples!

Big bad old Turkey....
Don't know if the south is an apple more like a Banana but you are right on that point Turkey is occupying the north on our behalf until or if we ever find a solution.

[Pyrpolizer]

A lot would change as Turkey would be accepting a GC government in the "RoC" which by not recognizing she does not have to deal with. Turkey had previous warned the EU of the dangers of taking a divided island into the EU and that she would not recognize the GC run government until a solution was found where the TCs were also included.
Its a bit like recognizing that you are in the wrong and that you will be forced to move your troops from an EU country and that is a very difficult step for Turkey to take without a solution.

Regarding the changes between Turkeys relations with RoC I fully agree with you, in fact I mentioned earlier that Turkey cannot avoid recognising de facto RoC although she would propagandise she only recognises a GC administration.It is practically impossible for Turkey to proceed her EU road without this recognition. Difficult or not nobody cares.

Concerning the warnings of Turkey that EU should not get in a divided island the matter is not as simple as you portray it. In fact there were a series of steps and agreements that lead to that. It started with the Davos (?) agreement where Greece accepted to withdraw her objection for Turkey getting a date, on exchange of Cyprus’s getting one. The obligation of Cyprus under this agreement was if by any chance the negotiations in finding a solution did not advance because of her fault, Cyprus would NOT join the EU and her negotiations would stop. Another obligation was to make everything possible so that TCs join her negotiating team.

Turkey should have thought of these while she kept Denktash for 30+ years turning down one proposal for a solution after another, as well as refusing to let any TC join Cyprus negotiating team. The philosophy of that agreement was that Cyprus future and EU accession should not be held hostage to Turkeys and Denktashes intrangidence. And that’s exactly what happened. In fact even the last minute, it was Honourable Mr Papadopoulos who ask the SG to bring in the Anan Plan one more time, whereas Denktash even refused to talk about it. So Cyprus showed the perfectly good image she was oblidged to show to become EU member WITHOUT a solution. It was Turkeys and your sides fault that no solution was found during all that period. So when time was finally up, and Cyprus would finally sign her accession, it was absolutely NAIVE for Turkey to warn the EU of anything. It did not come to her as a surprise. It was the outcome of a long term agreement and Turkey knew it all along. She was simply playing the tough guy all these years and finally lost the train (because she a specialist in losing trains )
You may of course say that in the end you accepted the Anan Plan. Yet the Anan Plan was not the result of negotiations but the result of arbitration and Cyprus was not bound by that…

Sorry but I don't agree with that logic. Using your veto or objection now would only bring the process to an halt/end but saving your objection until a stage when Turkey has made considerable process and is closer to entry will in effect give your veto even more weight and make Turkey yield to your demands as they would see the light at the end of tunnel.
As a TC i only hope you use it early on so Turkey doesn't go through all the demands of the EU only to find that she will be vetoed at the very last hurdles. I think it better shes knows now that she will not make it and thus find her own way. The EU is not the be all and end all there is a big world outside of the EU where Turkey build relations to the benefit of all concerned.

Things don’t work like that. Yielding to pressure once, establishes a precedence, yielding twice to more precedence, and so on. After your 10th fucked up, everybody will be laughing at you, and your only option is just get screwed once more without much resistence…

NB. We already offered a way out to Turkey. Varoshia. Her choice.

[Pyrpolizer]

Testing sorry for the disturbance
My IE and Opera crash on this site

Lets see if a can edit using Firefox.

Successful!!!!
Finally

[Viewpoint]

Pyrpolizer

Regarding the changes between Turkeys relations with RoC I fully agree with you, in fact I mentioned earlier that Turkey cannot avoid recognising de facto RoC although she would propagandise she only recognises a GC administration is practically impossible for Turkey to proceed her EU road without this recognition. Difficult or not nobody cares.

I agree the choice will have to be made somewhere by Turkey sooner than later I hope. I have explained what I think on that issue imo the longer Turkey is stringed along and made to dance to the EU tunes the more difficult it will be say thank you but no thanks lets put everything on hold and walk away.

Concerning the warnings of Turkey that EU should not get in a divided island the matter is not as simple as you portray it. In fact there were a series of steps and agreements that lead to that. It started with the Davos (?) agreement where Greece accepted to withdraw her objection for Turkey getting a date, on exchange of Cyprus’s getting one. The obligation of Cyprus under this agreement was if by any chance the negotiations in finding a solution did not advance because of her fault, Cyprus would NOT join the EU and her negotiations would stop. Another obligation was to make everything possible so that TCs join her negotiating team.

This is true but Turkey has continually brought the Cyprus issue to the EU has a problem that needed to be solved prior to only the GC controlled south entering the EU. This was evident from the last minute attempt to find a solution. The acceptance of the south was a lot of arm twisting by Greece in order to get the green light which paid dividends when Turkey wanted to proceed. The rest is history.

Turkey should have thought of these while she kept Denktash for 30+ years turning down one proposal for a solution after another, as well as refusing to let any TC join Cyprus negotiating team. The philosophy of that agreement was that Cyprus future and EU accession should not be held hostage to Turkeys and Denktashes intrangidence. And that’s exactly what happened. In fact even the last minute, it was Honourable Mr Papadopoulos who ask the SG to bring in the Anan Plan one more time, whereas Denktash even refused to talk about it. So Cyprus showed the perfectly good image she was oblidged to show to become EU member WITHOUT a solution. It was Turkeys and your sides fault that no solution was found during all that period. So when time was finally up, and Cyprus would finally sign her accession, it was absolutely NAIVE for Turkey to warn the EU of anything. It did not come to her as a surprise. It was the outcome of a long term agreement and Turkey knew it all along. She was simply playing the tough guy all these years and finally lost the train (because she a specialist in losing trains )
You may of course say that in the end you accepted the Anan Plan. Yet the Anan Plan was not the result of negotiations but the result of arbitration and Cyprus was not bound by that…

Whats happened as happened and you are now in the EU and causing Turkey problems on her EU path I hope that make you feel better, lets see how she will deal with ports issue by the end of the year. Something is brewing but exactly what we are all guessing.

Things don’t work like that. Yielding to pressure once, establishes a precedence, yielding twice to more precedence, and so on. After your 10th fucked up, everybody will be laughing at you, and your only option is just get screwed once more without much resistence…

NB. We already offered a way out to Turkey. Varoshia. Her choice.

I don't agree I still feel that not using a veto on issues earlier on rather than compromising is wrong as Turkey will have less incentive to concede to your demands and the likelihood of her turning away is higher.

Lets see something is cooking what with the change the government here in the north and the Finnish move to solve things it going to be very interesting to say the least...

[Ascot]

MARIKKOU who rattled your cage?

Viewpoint you are full of crap

So i wont wait for a Christmas present, don't think ill lose any sleep over it.

1. Who and in what capacity is Turkey in a position to offer or-able to give advice to European nations? Who ask Turkey for advice?

It was warnings about the problems that lay ahead, Turkey has had relations with EU states for over 40 years like it or not they do take notice.

2. Where did you read or understand that EU made a mistake in accepting Cyprus as a member! have a look at the votes 420 for 79 against (england spain and italy) and 125 abstentions!

Do you recall obviously not the trick you used with Greece about blocking the EU budget, ring any bells?

. Turkey knew all along what was happening.

You are right and they gave out warning saying that it will create big problems if a divided country is taken into EU and they have been proved right.

4. For Turkey to get the go ahead to commence negotiations Turkey knew and accepted the fact that Cyprus was one of the members of the "Club" Turkey at the time did not disputed Cyprus acceptance of "Turkey"

Was to late by then they had to accept to proceed and now they are paying the price with all these additional problems with the south.

Mate look at yourself on the mirror first. Turkey is an occupying country!
Turkey is the bad apple in a basket of fresh crispy apples!

Big bad old Turkey....
Don't know if the south is an apple more like a Banana but you are right on that point Turkey is occupying the north on our behalf until or if we ever find a solution.

[Ascot]

MARIKKOU who rattled your cage?

Viewpoint you are full of crap

So i wont wait for a Christmas present, don't think ill lose any sleep over it.

1. Who and in what capacity is Turkey in a position to offer or-able to give advice to European nations? Who ask Turkey for advice?

It was warnings about the problems that lay ahead, Turkey has had relations with EU states for over 40 years like it or not they do take notice.

2. Where did you read or understand that EU made a mistake in accepting Cyprus as a member! have a look at the votes 420 for 79 against (england spain and italy) and 125 abstentions!

Do you recall obviously not the trick you used with Greece about blocking the EU budget, ring any bells?

. Turkey knew all along what was happening.

You are right and they gave out warning saying that it will create big problems if a divided country is taken into EU and they have been proved right.

4. For Turkey to get the go ahead to commence negotiations Turkey knew and accepted the fact that Cyprus was one of the members of the "Club" Turkey at the time did not disputed Cyprus acceptance of "Turkey"

Was to late by then they had to accept to proceed and now they are paying the price with all these additional problems with the south.

Mate look at yourself on the mirror first. Turkey is an occupying country!
Turkey is the bad apple in a basket of fresh crispy apples!

Big bad old Turkey....
Don't know if the south is an apple more like a Banana but you are right on that point Turkey is occupying the north on our behalf until or if we ever find a solution.

Turkeys problems are many and difficult to deal at once.

Turkey is widely mistrusted.

Turks must return to the values of Kemal Attaturk and get Turkey back on track with the rest of the developing world.

Cyprus should not and is not the only issue!