Cyprus-Forum.com

[zan]

VP barbarians have no place in a civilised society, simple as that

And neither do racists. Greece, THE most racist country in the EU, fact. Can we also include the barbarians that killed a mans’ entire family whilst they were hiding in a bathroom. You should take great care when using the word barbarian because the glass house around you has glass missing already and if there is something that is even worse than barbarity it is calculated and civilised barbarity.

[Viewpoint]

VP , continues being extremely naive in continuing to exhibit the narrow mindedness shown so far by Turkey in refusing to recognise the ROC just as every other nation on earth does. VP should stand aside at least and not persist with this totally laughable idea that a government of a nation member of UN , Europe and every other organization is illegal because Turkey says so !!!

miltiades Turkey will not recognize the "RoC" in it current for it will only recognize a united Cyprus when a solution is found its as simple as that, why do yo u have problems understanding this fact. If every other nation recognizes you then whats your problem? obviously the people that matter in this dispute is not the rest of the world but us. Like it or not we are the other key to solving the Cyprus issue, you can go talk with those countries that recognize you in the hope of reuniting this island but as you have experienced and naively ignore it has got you nowhere near reunification. The only opportunity that was put to the people was rejected by none other than yourselves.

Solution = Recognition

[Pyrpolizer]

Viewpoint, how could I ever discuss sensibly with you when you tell me the "trnc" and Turkey will provide compensations and all that nonsense? Do you understand we are talking for the situation after a solution and what a Federal solution means? Do you understand there will not be any "trnc" after a solution and that the TC federal part will not be free to do everything it likes anymore? Do you understand you will be part of the EU and you will actually have to act according to EU directives and that each Federal part will just be raising and spending money from taxes? Do you understand that the reason "trnc" is unrecognised is becaused it is based on illegality, and the solution will actually avert this illegality on properties?

If there is no investment the land is returned to the refugee.

And where the hell is the TC living in it going to go? To the moon? Do you realise this affects the vast majority of TCs?

If you and many GCs are still not happy gtting full value compensation then maybe the GCs should think about compensating the TC full market value prices and also give back their land in the south.

So you are actually suggesting a war as to who is to buy who. No VP, I do not accept, not because I am afraid the GCs will lose. But because I am afraid the TCs will lose this war against the economically far stonger GCs. Hey why don’t you ask the Tcs if they accept, rather than asking me.

It seems I care more about what will happen to the average TC, than you do my dear…

OK now let me answer your previous question once again although I already did. I assume you refer to this: - - - >

And what would the criteria be for that court in matters of dispute? which there will be many.
( taking into account the above scenario of our hotel on disputed land)

I already said: the solution has to acknowledge the rights of the owner on his property, and the rights of the investor on his investment (be him TC only for reasons of necessity) and nothing more than that. You must remember these rights include not only whatever monentary value each of the rights represents, but also the right to coninue having ownership. By the minute you set criteria against the later the whole solution may be trashed at an EU court especially if these criteria affect only one of the 2 individuals rights.Forced sales affect the rights of the owner of land to continue having ownership, whereas they don’t affect the right of the investor to continue having his investment. I hope you understand this important point.

So lets assume the two individuals will not agree to settle the matter between themselves. The court will have to decide on 2 single parameters that will also be included in the solution agreement. In fact since these 2 parameters will be known in advance, I really doubt any 2 individuals will ever care going to court. Which are they?

a) First priority: Exchange of properties of equal value. Any monentary difference should also be part of this arrangement for upto about 25% of the total deal.
b) Second in row: Continue use of property on rent for the lifetime of the inhabitant (in case of home) or the lifetime of building - about 70 years (in case of bussiness) .

If you are afraid these matters and direct contact between the individuals might cause tension, then I don’t mind having them in the hands of a property committee assuming this committee will also accept whatever agreement the 2 parties might reach.

We all know that most of the GCs and TCs will never return. It would be interesting if by any miracle Varoshia is returned to see how many of the original inhabitants would ever return. But I guess politicians prefer to let people continue living with fears, than just let a real case occur so that people see the reality with their own eyes.
But on the other hand the GCs will never accept any solution that will force them do anything other than keeping ownership of their properties, plus the right to return if they wish.
I don’t see any other way of settling the matter without danger of having the whole solution agreement trashed at EU courts.

NB.Since you talked about Turkey providing money after a solution, I would really be satisfied if Turkey would undertake the re-housing of whatever number of settlers would stay, and the re-housing of those who will return to Turkey. Do I have to bet that Turkey will once again try to get out of this, by not paying a single penny as they did with the Anan plan?

[alexISS]

Greece, THE most racist country in the EU, fact

That's because Turkey is not in the EU

[pitsilos]

Pitsilos , we the Cypriots both Greek and Turks , need to ratify our thinking concerning each other as the only way to go forward and reunify our island for the sake of our future generations. Inflammatory statements as well as name calling will only ensure that the present de facto situation becomes permanent .

Miltiades i hear you my friend, but when you have TCs that think whats mine is mine and whats yours is also mine, can you actually believe that we can live together?

I dont believe that the majority of our people would wish the current situation to continue and solidify the present realities.

I agree with you here miltiades, but the TCs in this forum need to start thinking outside the box, and from what i keep on reading this dektash mentality/ideology is deeply engraved in their brain. they need a de-brainwashing before we can join. so i am all for the current situation and i am willing to wait funtil that change occurs

Turkey , a nation of 70 million is the only Islamic country that has persevered and made huge strides towards modernization which also includes her entry into the most successful union ever.

what changes are we talking about miltiades? salad dressing?

Europe needs a moderated modern Turkey that can bridge the gap now so evident between the Muslim world and the rest.

yeah the EU needs turkey like it needs a hole in the head.

We in Cyprus must hope that Turkey will one day join Europe and that the permanent threat of conflict is removed , and future generations will not have to endure what we have .

the only way we will remove the conflict is only when the EU becomes a real political power with its own EU army to patrol the borders and i don't think the turks will bother us ever again. the turks only one thing, and that is bullying a smaller nation, anything bigger and the shit the pants. lets look at the gardak scenario. Greece was ready to go to war, and the turks run to the US to get greece to back down. read the clinton book. i can give you a page ref if you need.

Concessions will come and Turkey more than any other nation knows that.

screw turkey and let then shove their concessions where the sun don't shine. who cares?

VP , continues being extremely naive in continuing to exhibit the narrow mindedness shown so far by Turkey in refusing to recognise the ROC just as every other nation on earth does. VP should stand aside at least and not persist with this totally laughable idea that a government of a nation member of UN , Europe and every other organization is illegal because Turkey says so !!!

do you think a leopard can change its spots?

[pitsilos]

VP barbarians have no place in a civilised society, simple as that

And neither do racists. Greece, THE most racist country in the EU, fact. Can we also include the barbarians that killed a mans’ entire family whilst they were hiding in a bathroom. You should take great care when using the word barbarian because the glass house around you has glass missing already and if there is something that is even worse than barbarity it is calculated and civilised barbarity.

I see mr rip van winkle hasn't waken up yet, even though its 2006

and mr rip van winkle can you walk us through with the barbaric events of 1996 in front of the whole world and in colour? oh i forgot you are still asleep

[miltiades]

VP , In the world we live in there are undisputed facts and situations that are undeniably recognised as either legal and correct or not. No nation worth its salt can persist in ignoring internationally accepted and recognised positions. One of this undisputed facts is that you VP as a Cypriot , although part of a minority , have got as much rights as I have being part of the overall majority in Cyprus. Cyprus belongs to you just as much as it belongs to me. Your posts clearly depict you as Turkish first and Cypriot second. There are views expressed by our newcomer Pitsilos that I find nonconstructive and there are views expressed by you that are also not helpful.
Turkey and you are following a line that although I understand , I do find deplorable . I have on numerous occasions expresed my views on what constitutes proper diplomatic behaviour , and most certainly the non-recognition of a nation empowered by international legalities to repressent the people of Cyprus is a non- starter as far as the US Britain and Europe are concerned. The T/Cs have been isolated for many years now and please dont tell me that they are happy with this continuing. They belong in Cyprus , they deserve the benefits of a growing economy and most certainly they belong in the National Football team , the Olympic team and any other such event where they can proudly repressent their country.

[zan]

VP barbarians have no place in a civilised society, simple as that

And neither do racists. Greece, THE most racist country in the EU, fact. Can we also include the barbarians that killed a mans’ entire family whilst they were hiding in a bathroom. You should take great care when using the word barbarian because the glass house around you has glass missing already and if there is something that is even worse than barbarity it is calculated and civilised barbarity.

I see mr rip van winkle hasn't waken up yet, even though its 2006

and mr rip van winkle can you walk us through with the barbaric events of 1996 in front of the whole world and in colour? oh i forgot you are still asleep

Good morning racists.



How times have changed. Greece was a basket case when it entered the then European Community in 1981. It was propelled in, partly under American pressure (sounds familiar?), before many people, including the European Commission, thought it was ready. During the first three years of membership, an army of Commission officials shuttled between Brussels and Athens to coax, cajole and bully the Greek administration into implementing EC policies and giving up centuries-old Levantine practices and habits.

The shock therapy succeeded, although it took time: by the mid-1980s Jacques Delors was still musing out loud that Greek membership had been a mistake.

If the treatment worked for Greece, can it work for the newcomers? The answer is: probably, up to a point. The trouble is that Commission president Romano Prodi does not have enough armies at his disposal to handle the equivalent of ten recalcitrant Greeces. It will be much better if the newcomers are able to emulate the self-help and self-discipline approach adopted by Simitis and his socialist government since 1996. It has been even more crucial to Greece’s success.

This is not to say that Greece has become a star pupil. It has been less astute in using EU membership (and money) to accelerate economic development than the other poor countries, Portugal and Ireland, with which it is inevitably compared. The nation’s wealth – measured in terms of GDP – is still less than 70 percent of the EU average. Greece is among those EU countries most frequently taken to task by the Commission for failing to implement, or for not implementing correctly, EU directives. It can show the same mean streak as other governments in defending national interests – as over Cyprus.

[Viewpoint]

Pyrpolizer

Viewpoint, how could I ever discuss sensibly with you when you tell me the "trnc" and Turkey will provide compensations and all that nonsense? Do you understand we are talking for the situation after a solution and what a Federal solution means? Do you understand there will not be any "trnc" after a solution and that the TC federal part will not be free to do everything it likes anymore? Do you understand you will be part of the EU and you will actually have to act according to EU directives and that each Federal part will just be raising and spending money from taxes? Do you understand that the reason "trnc" is unrecognised is becaused it is based on illegality, and the solution will actually avert this illegality on properties?

Firstly take a deep breath and come to your senses, any agreements where the responsible parties will be liable to pay compensation will not disappear after the TRNC and "RoC" have been dissolved to form a BBF united Cyprus, international agreements/provisions will be in place to ensure continuity of funding availability.

Lets try and get this mental stumbling block you have out of the way illegal or not you still have to deal with the TRNC which represent the TC community on this island, so get over it.

And where the hell is the TC living in it going to go? To the moon? Do you realise this affects the vast majority of TCs?

Those areas that will remain in the TC state will be judged on what they have exchanged in the south and what they have gotten in the north, they will pay or receive the difference if they intend to keep the property.
The GC will get full value compensation or land submitted by TCs in the south but many will have to accept compensation.

Those areas to be returned to the GC state the TCs will be rehoused in new towns and homes with long term financing, they will also get their property back in the south.

Those lands undeveloped in the TC state will be returned to GC and vice verse.

So you are actually suggesting a war as to who is to buy who. No VP, I do not accept, not because I am afraid the GCs will lose. But because I am afraid the TCs will lose this war against the economically far stonger GCs. Hey why don’t you ask the Tcs if they accept, rather than asking me.

Many would but on the strict condition that GCs will sell property to TCs not like in the past where no Gc would not sell to a TC just because they are TCs so as not to allow the land distribution to change in any way. there should be a very heavy penalty as a deterrent and even imprisonment.

I already said: the solution has to acknowledge the rights of the owner on his property, and the rights of the investor on his investment (be him TC only for reasons of necessity) and nothing more than that. You must remember these rights include not only whatever monentary value each of the rights represents, but also the right to coninue having ownership. By the minute you set criteria against the later the whole solution may be trashed at an EU court especially if these criteria affect only one of the 2 individuals rights.Forced sales affect the rights of the owner of land to continue having ownership, whereas they don’t affect the right of the investor to continue having his investment. I hope you understand this important point.

So lets assume the two individuals will not agree to settle the matter between themselves. The court will have to decide on 2 single parameters that will also be included in the solution agreement. In fact since these 2 parameters will be known in advance, I really doubt any 2 individuals will ever care going to court. Which are they?

a) First priority: Exchange of properties of equal value. Any monentary difference should also be part of this arrangement for upto about 25% of the total deal.
b) Second in row: Continue use of property on rent for the lifetime of the inhabitant (in case of home) or the lifetime of building - about 70 years (in case of bussiness) .

Answer the specific question who gets the land and hotel if both parties cannot agree to share or sell?

Are you saying the GC keeps the land and the TC the investment? what if the TC doesn't pay rent or doesn't allow the GC to visit his land?

or does the court give the GC the TC land in the south and 25% compensation?

Who will be on this court?

Sounds to messy to me and open to dispute and conflict which should be avoided at all costs as this will escalate and cause inter communal problems yet again.

If you are afraid these matters and direct contact between the individuals might cause tension, then I don’t mind having them in the hands of a property committee assuming this committee will also accept whatever agreement the 2 parties might reach.

This i agree with but the structure of this committee is important.

We all know that most of the GCs and TCs will never return. It would be interesting if by any miracle Varoshia is returned to see how many of the original inhabitants would ever return.

I personally feel all GCs will return to Maraş if it were returned to the "RoC" if it remained under the control of the TRNC is would be questionable.

But I guess politicians prefer to let people continue living with fears, than just let a real case occur so that people see the reality with their own eyes.

I agree.

But on the other hand the GCs will never accept any solution that will force them do anything other than keeping ownership of their properties, plus the right to return if they wish.

This i am afraid is a lie that has been fed GCs for over 32 years, that all GCs will have the right to return, the sooner they come to terms with the fact that they will not the sooner one part of the solution will be more flexible.

I don’t see any other way of settling the matter without danger of having the whole solution agreement trashed at EU courts.

Any agreement for a solution will allow for these differences which do not come into line with EU norms those rules were made by humans and can be adapted to special cases they are called derogation's many new members have them.

NB.Since you talked about Turkey providing money after a solution, I would really be satisfied if Turkey would undertake the re-housing of whatever number of settlers would stay, and the re-housing of those who will return to Turkey. Do I have to bet that Turkey will once again try to get out of this, by not paying a single penny as they did with the Anan plan?

It would be near to impossible for Turkey to back out of an international agreement where she gives here guarantee to finance rehousing and settler return projects. I am certain there are enough donors that would provide the finance necessary on the guarantee of Turkey and other nations involved and international donors would also contribute. Think of the million of USD dollars Turkey pumps into the TRNC every year and the cost of the 40.000 strong army.

[miltiades]

VP , YOU ARE AS STUBURN AS A MULE !
It is precisely because of mentalities such as yours that the current situation exists.
You have the audacious approach in putting forward as the legitimate government of our island the occupied part of Cyprus where you amaze me at your total and utter contempt for the Internationally accepted legitimate Cypriot government. You may as well tell us that the earth is square.
Can you not get in your head that unless we all face realities our island will be divided for ever with the constant threat of conflict ? You put forward the "TRNC " as the legal nation , have you got a passport issued by the "TRNC" that can be accepted the world over , or currency that you can negotiate any where. We will not get any where by being stubbornly stupid , you are a Cypriot and so iam too. Our island is crying out for a solution our people want it and our future generations demand it. If the leadership of Turkey who dictate the policy persist in encouraging the likes of you to hold blatantly non conformist views to the generally accepted standards of nationhood then you may just be living in a fool's paradise. The T/C deserve their island just as the G/Cs do , and if the educated amongst us are influencing the continuation of division and the proclamation of a nation within a nation then unification will be that harder to come .
Are you real or you a Turkish propaganda machine. I kicked the motherland nonsense many moons ago and embraced the identity of my forefathers , its time you do so too.