Cyprus-Forum.com

[Pyrpolizer]

So you are suggesting the TC and GC go into business together? aren't you complicating matters even further, man we cant even arrange to have a Olympic flame go from south to north without screwing things up and you are proposing people who do not know each other, and may not have any business acumen go into business together. The only way I see it is that one side gets rightful compensation, either the GC gets full value for land or the TC get a return on his investment and his land in the south. The TCs plus the TRNC and Turkey can pay the GC or the GC plus the GC south can pay the TCs, so that each can go on their merry way.

You are too simplistic. Society doesn’t work like that. I proposed full respect for both the owners right on his property as well as the investors right (be him TC only) on his investment. You (and me) cannot even imagine how many arrangements two individuals can end up with. Besides partnership agreement is not the only thing I suggested, your own suggestions were included as options of free will in my proposals as well.

Furthermore you assumed that because our politicians failed to reach political agreements on several issues, that there is some kind of inherent inability among the GC/TC individuals to reach simple agreements as well, as if they both have some sort of genes anomaly. You are obviously wrong. Look around you.

[andri_cy]

Heh We know that the criminals are working well together....

[Viewpoint]

Pyrpolizer

You are too simplistic

This is vital to avoid confusion and mayhem over such an important issue. If you do not have clear cut directives and criteria things will go drastically wrong and may even cause conflict between our communities as everyone will interpret the solution differently.

I proposed full respect for both the owners right on his property as well as the investors right (be him TC only) on his investment. You (and me) cannot even imagine how many arrangements two individuals can end up with. Besides partnership agreement is not the only thing I suggested, your own suggestions were included as options of free will in my proposals as well.

I understand the alternatives you are trying to create but you cannot force partnerships between people who know absolutely nothing about each other. You have to have clear cut rules in place so everyone is full aware of their options. For example if the GC is given the option to kick out the TC investor off the property then the TC has to know his rights so that neither one will go beyond those limits to cause friction or disputes.
Plus no GC in his right mind would give up an opportunity to have a share in an investment of 5million when his stake is only 250.000, how do you apportion those shares? what rights does that shareholder have over the running of the investment. What you suggest is to complicated and will cause to many problems between our people which in the long run will back fire causing more damage than good.

Of course if that's what both parties wish to do ı have no objections just as long as all parties know full well what they are getting themselves into.

Imho full compensation for the individual with less stake in the disputed property should be the first option in order to avoid disputes and frictions between our communities.

Furthermore you assumed that because our politicians failed to reach political agreements on several issues, that there is some kind of inherent inability among the GC/TC individuals to reach simple agreements as well, as if they both have some sort of genes anomaly. You are obviously wrong. Look around you.

Where is the co-operation around us?? please clarify I do not see any agreement on any issue, we cant even trade over the green line without one side being influenced or intimidated to a degree of backing out.

[pitsilos]

Olympic flame go from south to north without screwing things up

the only screw up here is you and your BS propaganda machine

and explain to me how is turkey gonna get money to pay for all these proposals when they ain't got 2 pennies to rub together?

Go take a few economic lessons and research the 16th largest economy in the world, one of only 7 countries which has enough natural resources to sustain itself, one of the youngest work forces which EU will need in 10 years time and the best economic growth in the EU.
The largest investment growth worldwide and the potential to be the second largest country in the EU. Believe me you will be begging to be Turkeys ally in 20 years time, at which stage she will remember all your current bitching and EU leverage games....

16th largest economy in the world what? who someone's else money.

hey viewpoint anyone can spend money they ain't got.

if turkey was a company she would have gone belly up 100 times over by now.

now be a good boy and tell me who is the second highest borrower of the imf? and how much do they owe?

economics turkey style

Go ask Greece who suck the EU blood being a taker, at least Turkey is repaying this debt which is granted to developing countries with credibility and an ability to repay. The thought of Turkey developing makes you quake in your boots and shit yourself that in 20 years Turkey will be a force in Europe that you would rather have as an ally than a enemy, but of course your comments illustrate you are too short sited to see this but don't worry other EU countries are not.

hey viewpoint don't you worry about Greece mate, because greece ain't the issue here.

and the joke of the day is:

The thought of Turkey developing makes you quake in your boots and shit yourself that in 20 years Turkey will be a force in Europe

Keep on dreaming viepoint and one day Turkey will be a lone superpower

[Pyrpolizer]

If you do not have clear cut directives and criteria things will go drastically wrong and may even cause conflict between our communities as everyone will interpret the solution differently.

My criteria are crystal clear. Both have rights. Cut directives for forced sales as you propose would be fine if you could guarantee no-ones rights are violated. How do you guarantee ones right on his property and his choice to keep it, if you were to set directives for forced sales? How do you guarantee his right to sell it at a later time that prices become stabilised all over Cyprus at a much higher level? Imo the only cut directive applicable is the lease option for the lifetime of the building (about 70 years). From there on any agreement the 2 parties might reach should also be acceptable.

I understand the alternatives you are trying to create but you cannot force partnerships between people

I am not forcing partnerships. Partnership is just one of the many ways the two individuals could agree between themselves excercising their free will to secure their rights. If they are unable to find an agreement there should be a quick action court that will decide within a month based on cut directives the only one possible in my opinion being the rent. The political agreement only needs to acknowledge the rights of land owners, the rights of investors, and the right of every human to live in a house.(so that nobody is kicked out in the streets after a solution)

Plus no GC in his right mind would give up an opportunity to have a share in an investment of 5million when his stake is only 250.000, how do you apportion those shares? what rights does that shareholder have over the running of the investment.

In your example the total investment is 1 share for the land plus 20 shares capital. The land owner gets 1 share and the other guy 20 shares.(from a total of 21).The rights deriving from this partnership are described in legal bussiness books.

Your own proposal has inherent injustices:a) the land owener can never buy the investor because the investor is 20 times stronger. b)the land owener was deprived his rights by the investor who builted on his own property without permission. d)the land owner could easily find some partner to do exactly the same bussiness on his prime land, and profit from that development the same way he would profit with the current investor. d)the land owner could do it himself without a partner e.g. by having a bank finacing him.(most propably this is what the investor himself has done on the first place).

So all these options for the land owner go away with your clear cut suggestion simply because someone invested on his property without his permission and is only willing to give him compensation for just the price of land. That would be fair if there was other similar land for the owner to buy. However such lands suitable for hotel bussiness are simply OVER in Cyprus….

Imho full compensation for the individual with less stake in the disputed property should be the first option in order to avoid disputes and frictions between our communities.

Sorry but you got stuck to the exceptional example you gave and this leads us to many wrong conclussions. The vast majority of GC properties have not been invested, and the stakes are all in favor of the GCs. If we follow your suggestion of clear cut buy-sell-finish you should also consider what would happen to the vast majority of average TC people. Following your suggestion they will end up homeless.
So I insist the first option should always be for the individuals to arrange the matter between themselves and the only cut directive be the payment of rent.

The political agreement should also perovide for what would happen when one of the 2 individuals is unable to take ANY option, nor even pay rent, or simply does not want to compromise in anyway. For example take 2 poor elderly living on a GC house, that have nothing to even exchange. Rent,buy,exchange, are all out of question for them. In this case the political agreement should provide government housing for them.

Where is the co-operation around us?? please clarify I do not see any agreement on any issue, we cant even trade over the green line without one side being influenced or intimidated to a degree of backing out.

That’s because you don’t look closely. Here, the tomato I am now eating was produced at the occupied by a TC. Did the TC tomato come to my plate flying through the sky? I was present last weak when 2 TCs were signing contracts for know-how and partnership with a GC for establishing a "copy" bussiness at the occupied areas. Of course you will never learn that Ahmets bussiness, that will open up in December is actually the result of cooperation and an agreement with a GC….

[zan]

Olympic flame go from south to north without screwing things up

the only screw up here is you and your BS propaganda machine

and explain to me how is turkey gonna get money to pay for all these proposals when they ain't got 2 pennies to rub together?

Go take a few economic lessons and research the 16th largest economy in the world, one of only 7 countries which has enough natural resources to sustain itself, one of the youngest work forces which EU will need in 10 years time and the best economic growth in the EU.
The largest investment growth worldwide and the potential to be the second largest country in the EU. Believe me you will be begging to be Turkeys ally in 20 years time, at which stage she will remember all your current bitching and EU leverage games....

16th largest economy in the world what? who someone's else money.

hey viewpoint anyone can spend money they ain't got.

if turkey was a company she would have gone belly up 100 times over by now.

now be a good boy and tell me who is the second highest borrower of the imf? and how much do they owe?

economics turkey style

Go ask Greece who suck the EU blood being a taker, at least Turkey is repaying this debt which is granted to developing countries with credibility and an ability to repay. The thought of Turkey developing makes you quake in your boots and shit yourself that in 20 years Turkey will be a force in Europe that you would rather have as an ally than a enemy, but of course your comments illustrate you are too short sited to see this but don't worry other EU countries are not.

hey viewpoint don't you worry about Greece mate, because greece ain't the issue here.

and the joke of the day is:

The thought of Turkey developing makes you quake in your boots and shit yourself that in 20 years Turkey will be a force in Europe

Keep on dreaming viepoint and one day Turkey will be a lone superpower

Give us a clue mate..... what are they doing that gives you that impression. Give us some details. All the economic reports I read say that Turkey is on the right track. Pure hate of Turkey will not wish them away. Cut the wise cracks and give us some proof of impending doom.

Why is Greece not the issue here. If they can pick themselves up but are not performing as well as they should and need to include profits from prostitution to balance thier books, why can't Turkey. I borrowed lots of money to buy a house but I was sure I could pay it back is that not how it works. I think you need to think outside the box or the EUs skirts. There is a big wide world outside the EU.

[Viewpoint]

Pyrpolizer

My criteria are crystal clear. Both have rights. Cut directives for forced sales as you propose would be fine if you could guarantee no-ones rights are violated.

So let me get this right if your criteria is crystal clear the current user/investor is faced with a GC who wants to a partner in his business? The land will always be the GCs and he will enjoy shares and a say in the running of the TC business activities for a very long time until the TC hands back the land and the business in say 70 years.

Lets work on the scenario that the TC is not interested and tells the GC to go to hell even going so far as to throw the GC off his property wielding a shot gun. How will your clear cut criteria resolve such a situation? You are putting everyone at risk when you allow people to go head on against each other.

This is clearly open to conflict and brings GC up against TC therefore encouraging acts of aggression fuelled by frustration. This has to be avoided at all costs as there are to many variables left open to dispute that will cause irreversible damage.

How do you guarantee ones right on his property and his choice to keep it, if you were to set directives for forced sales?

Clearly this cannot be guaranteed to the man who property has been used to a degree where the investment far outweighs the value of the land in question. That's when some refugees will have to accept compensation for the sake of a solution to go buy elsewhere which I think will be feasible as many GC who do have their lands returned will not want anything to do with the north state and therefore will be more prone to sell unless manipulated otherwise by your leaders.

How do you guarantee his right to sell it at a later time that prices become stabilised all over Cyprus at a much higher level?

Averages can be calculated to allow for this issue so that no refugees who accepts compensation will lose out on value.

Imo the only cut directive applicable is the lease option for the lifetime of the building (about 70 years). From there on any agreement the 2 parties might reach should also be acceptable.

You cannot just leave this issue up to the people, its to volatile and will cause conflict.

I am not forcing partnerships. Partnership is just one of the many ways the two individuals could agree between themselves excercising their free will to secure their rights. If they are unable to find an agreement there should be a quick action court that will decide within a month based on cut directives the only one possible in my opinion being the rent. The political agreement only needs to acknowledge the rights of land owners, the rights of investors, and the right of every human to live in a house.(so that nobody is kicked out in the streets after a solution)

And what would the criteria be for that court in matters of dispute? which there will be many.
( taking into account the above scenario of our hotel on disputed land)

Your own proposal has inherent injustices:a) the land owener can never buy the investor because the investor is 20 times stronger.

This is the crux of the issue the greater amount should forge precedence as the 5million investment is far greater than the GC could ever hope to get for his land.

b)the landowner was deprived his rights by the investor who builted on his own property without permission.

The permission was granted by the TRNC who are the representatives of the TC community, so in reality the GC should apply to them for restitution or compensation as the TC has also handed over valuable land in the south in exchange also administered by the TRNC.

d)the land owner could easily find some partner to do exactly the same business on his prime land, and profit from that development the same way he would profit with the current investor.

The Gc can invest elsewhere with compensation or land exchange.

d)the land owner could do it himself without a partner e.g. by having a bank finacing him.(most propably this is what the investor himself has done on the first place).

ditto above

So all these options for the land owner go away with your clear cut suggestion simply because someone invested on his property without his permission and is only willing to give him compensation for just the price of land. That would be fair if there was other similar land for the owner to buy. However such lands suitable for hotel business are simply OVER in Cyprus….

Its not that simple 32 years have gone by our lives continue to change and investments were made which cannot be reversed. What you are proposing is that all the rights are the court of the GC and the TC has to either give up his investment which you say the GC cannot pay for or become partners with the GC that he knows nothing about.

In such cases where the investment is clearly above the current value of the land the GC should be compelled to accept compensation to avoid future complications and disputes. he to can go on to invest elsewhere with the substantial compensation he will receive courtesy of the TRNC and Turkey.

Will continue with the rest later......[/quote]

[pitsilos]

This is clearly open to conflict and brings GC up against TC therefore encouraging acts of aggression fuelled by frustration

this from people that want unification. I said it before and i will say it again the smell of money made youse all to vote yes. and i got news for you buddy it ain't gonna happen.

you want unification and you keep on selling the GC properties. you don't see anything wrong with that? maybe you should take the blinkers off and you might be able to see better.

just like your turkey is the 16th largest economy in the world, but you nicely forget the borrowings. do you know the size of turkeys debt?

go on walk away from the EU and see what happens. you think turkey can afford to take this chance. what? you say you want proof? well just look at the constant humiliation on daily basis and that turkey ain't walking away. now why is that?

no other eu country got this humiliated as turkey has. and the funny part she keeeeeeeps on coming back for more.

Pyrpolizer you are talking to a grey wolf mate, with the mentality, whats mine is mine and whats yours is also mine. it says so in their propaganda manual, on page 1, paragraph 1

[Pyrpolizer]

Please do continue to enable me reply.
You will see that the rules you want to impose based on this very extraordinary example of a hotel case will actually be against the interests of the vast majority of TCs.
In any solution you must NOT think selfishly

[Pyrpolizer]

Pitsillos grey worf, eoka b, grivases, makarioses, Denktashes, I love them all re cause I can understand them. See they are all Cypriots after all, albeit went astray.