Cyprus-Forum.com

[Alexandros Lordos]

To what extent should the solution of the Cyprus Problem be bizonal? ...

We keep talking about bizonality, but we lose sight of the fact that there are different possible "flavours" to it ...

[brother]

All cypriots should be free to live where they want in their country.

[turkcyp]

I think the options are limited. There should have been a forth option.

I do not care about the geographical bizonality. As far as I am concerned, the GCs can come and live anywhere they want, in any numbers they want. I do not care if they are 33% of Turkish state or 80% of Turkish state.

What I care about is political bizonality. With this I mean, they can come and live as long as they want, whereever they want, and in any numbers they want, as long as their involvement in the national politics and election process is in the south.

Have a great day everybody,

p.s. Saying that they can come in any number they want to whereever they want does not mean that I believe the right to return should be given to every GC without any restrictions. Because I believe this definetley has the potential of forcing many of the TCs form their corrent houses (which they all accepet as truley theirs right now) and has a potential to creat emore tension between communities, and is counterproductive to peace efforts and also is not feasible as well.

[insan]

I do not care about the geographical bizonality. As far as I am concerned, the GCs can come and live anywhere they want, in any numbers they want. I do not care if they are 33% of Turkish state or 80% of Turkish state.

Then think of a TC constituent state which %80 of its municipal and local administrations executed by GCs because of the population density but also have no political rights in that constituent state. Thus, we may call the Turkish constituent state as Turkish Constituent state localy administered and run by GCs with no political rights.

[turkcyp]

Dear insan,

"Politics is the art of possible". I do not think it is possible to limit the amount of GCs moving to TC constituent state in the long run. This might be possible if Cyprus was not a part of EU for lets say 50 years. Now with Cyprus being part of EU, I think this kind of restriction can be possible, more than 15 years.

Permament derogations into the EU law is very very rare, and most of the times are turned from the courts of EU.

Plus, I do not have a problem living among GCs, and if they happen to be %80 of the locality, I do not have a problem them having %80 of the locality goverment.

Those Turks who do not want to be part of that kind of arranegment, in time will accumulate next to other Turks which will at least guarantee some of the municipalities being majority Turkish. These things all will sort itself out in time.

And furthermore, I also do not think many of the GCs would want to move back and live in the north on permamnent basis. They may come and buy a second home, but in politics I believe "The feathers of the birds flock together" and I also believe that people vote with their vallets and with their feet as well.

p.s. Voting with feet, is an expression used to describe human behaviour where people move to places which repsresent their political opinions. and social life style.

[metecyp]

Then think of a TC constituent state which %80 of its municipal and local administrations executed by GCs because of the population density but also have no political rights in that constituent state. Thus, we may call the Turkish constituent state as Turkish Constituent state localy administered and run by GCs with no political rights.

It doesn't make sense, does it? Whenever we talk about bizonality, we have to talk about some kind of limitations. I think 33% GCs (with local political rights in the north and federal rights in the south) living in the Turkish constituent state seems reasonable. That way GCs will have political rights in the Turkish constituent state for daily matters and they'll have their federal rights in the south and hence political equality of two communities will be preserved.

Now, the question is can you really limit GCs 33% in the north? Isn't that against the EU principles? I think in the long run, yes, it is against the EU principles but it's a transitional period that we have to go through.

One possible solution is that after some transitional period, we can have the possibility of different percentages for each city/area and let the local TCs decide what they want. For example, after some transitonal period (15-20 years), ask TCs in Kyrenia area (some mini-referandum), if they would like to see more GCs than 33%. If they say yes, then this percentage can be increased. So we might have 50% GCs in Kyrenia, for example while Nicosian TCs might still prefer 33%.

I believe that if everything goes smoothly, there's no reason for TCs to accept more GCs live in the north. More people means more money and better economy and by that time, the issue of land ownership will be pretty much resolved, so there would be no reason for TCs not want more GCs.

[Alasya]

turkcyp

"What I care about is political bizonality. With this I mean, they can come and live as long as they want, whereever they want, and in any numbers they want, as long as their involvement in the national politics and election process is in the south"

How can you implement this? So, let me put it to you this way, if a Turkish Cypriot lives in Paphos, its his home, his family had lived there since 1572, to him the North is not where he lives, he is going to have no rights to vote in local issues for that area, but will have a right to dsecide on issues in Girne or Dipkarpaz. That makes no sense to me. Sorry.

what if a child is half greek and half turkish cypriot? will they have one vote or two?

What a future UNited Cyprus REpublic needs is what I have already stated in other messages, a strong / powerful executive and federal government. A Federal govt that is PAN CYPRIAN, and not a partnership between Greek and Turk.

[turkcyp]

Dear Alasya,

A pan-cyprion, or what others call "Cypriot without Turk or Greek at the begining" is a very distant future which can not be achieved immediately. You can not walk without crawling.

What we need to do is to show that Greek and Turkish Cypriots can live and work together side by side initially. And in time, this will lead to mutual understanding of each other and reconciliation of past diferences and harms done so that in the future we can have your "pan-cyprion" nation.

I said it so many times. USA is not founded in 5 years. What you call American right now is a product of more than 200 years of harmonization of different societies, and cultures.

Do you think if in 1776 Thomas Jeferson should come and said, forget about your backgrounds you are all American right now, USA would have been a success.

And furthermore USA is an even easier case then Cyprus. USA is designed to be a melting pot and people who migrate to USA were willingt o give up something from their national identity back to earn something in return in USA. But the situation in Cyprus is wuite different. here we see two communities which both say that this is my land, and are not willing to give up their identitiy just yet.

That may happen in the future, but as of right now, we are at the crawling phase where we are still trying to learn to live together, and learn to trust each other. One step at a time. As Juba said "Not yet. Not yet"

Have a good day,

p.s. I realize that this is not the subject here. But I believe if we want to succedd we have to be realistic, and set achieveble goals. Relating so subject it can be done. There are numerous examples about this from so many different places in the world. Even in 1960 constitution all these issues you have mentioned have all been adressed.

[Piratis]

No bizonality would be ideal.

Bizonality for a transitional period (say 10-15 years) could be necessary though.

A strict pure bizonality is not acceptable. When people can live freely anywhere they choose within EU you can not restrict them of doing so in their own country.

I believe that the TC state should be around 24% of the ground. This way, if almost all TCs choose to live in the TC state, they will have a clear majority even if all GC refugees return. If the TCs decide that they don't care to restrict themselves in their own state, this will mean that they don't have a problem to live along with GCs and therefore it will not be a problem if in the TC state we have 50%-50% GCs/TCs.

The senate will be always elected by TCs and GCs separately irrespective of where they live.

[insan]

Dear insan,

"Politics is the art of possible". I do not think it is possible to limit the amount of GCs moving to TC constituent state in the long run. This might be possible if Cyprus was not a part of EU for lets say 50 years. Now with Cyprus being part of EU, I think this kind of restriction can be possible, more than 15 years.

That's why I defend the bi-communal unitary state instead of short life bi-zonal, bi-communal federation.

Permament derogations into the EU law is very very rare, and most of the times are turned from the courts of EU.

That's right... So why should we waste our times to build a federal system which will last not more than 10 or 15 years and then convert whole system into a unitary system.

Plus, I do not have a problem living among GCs, and if they happen to be %80 of the locality, I do not have a problem them having %80 of the locality goverment.

I didn't tell you that you have....

Those Turks who do not want to be part of that kind of arranegment, in time will accumulate next to other Turks which will at least guarantee some of the municipalities being majority Turkish. These things all will sort itself out in time.

This is also correct.

And furthermore, I also do not think many of the GCs would want to move back and live in the north on permamnent basis.

In the beginning, yes only the first group of GC refugees will return to their homes and if things go well, satisfy them; there'll be more who would want to move North or buy property in North and live there whenever they want.



So, instead of wasting our times, energies and financial resources something which would last 10 or 15 years. Let's talk about the bi-communal unitary state of politicaly equal communities.