Cyprus-Forum.com

[Viewpoint]

Well viewpoint, I find you here talking nice, but me too, I wonder about your sincerity. When we speak, you have made it clear that you feel there are differences between your }us} and me...just because I am not a TC, or maybe because of the label you place on me: a GC. To have a happy Cyprus a lot less should be said about what we want from the other, alot less of what we did to each other, and a lot more about what we can give to each other, as communities and as individuals.

We learn from the past and judge current developments that will shape our future and if we are not happy with these we have the right to rejecy them. Do you feel that anyone in their right mind woudl reject something that would improve their lives, well unfortunately we do not see anything remotely that would make us question that a united Cyprus would be best for all concerned.

[Pyrpolizer]

My house has been knocked down and I have live amongst GCs in a GC state to even claim my home, so get off your high horse and start to see both sides of the story. It was your friendly Greeks and GCs leaders that ignited the enosis bomb that exploded in your face and made you lose your house why dont you go ask them for its return.

Ύ of my own village were also knocked down to make space for that huge military base. My house is still deserted on the remaining quarter, but all my relatives houses don’t exist anymore. They will be happy if they just get the land back. The same goes for you. Yes our side ignited the Enosis bomb, how about your Taksim bomb? In fact you materialised your taksim dream exactly as it was pre-planned. So don’t give me all this crap it was all our fault, it was also your fault, and the way things turned out prove you are more responsible than us.

We are Turkish Cypriots living in the north of Cyprus alone so its only natural we include Turkish, north Cyprus in our countries name.

So you can call Cyprus or the occupied part Turkish huh? Very good. Continue.

Look Pyrpolizer I have stated in the past I will take care of your properties under the isolation imposed on us until or if we find a solution, is that ok? or otherwise apply to the property commission in the north if you do not get what you want you have the right to go to the ECHR.

But you ARE NOT taking care of them. Ask kifeas. Ask any other person you want. Just yesterday I met a guy who told me they knocked to the ground all his properties and they are currently building 54 villas (!!!) for foreigners in his own lands. In there they builded a huge lean-to something like a huge greenhouse were they house more than 400 workers from Turkey. In there those workers they sleep, they eat, they shit. And they work all day for less than $10 building 54 villas in his own property. And you tell me you take good care???? Are you trying to joke me or irridate me?
I will never apply to the stupid commission and help them collect the 3-4 cases they need to present themselves legal to the ECHR. Besides I don’t sell my properties. I want them back. What will I do with them? That’s my bussiness. Nobody lives in my property but if someone were living I would go talk to him. If he tells me look I am poor I have nowhere to go, please let me stay, I would tell him stay as long as you want, I don’t want money. All I want is after you don’t need it anymore give it back to me (if I am still alive) or to my children. That’s all.

All GCs seem to have this misconcieved belief that we want to hold on to their property well let me remind you security and polictical equality are far more important.

Security and political equality is already secured within the concept of Federal solution. What we saw however in the AP is you wanted 2/3rds of our properties.

This can easily be achieved by convincing your leaders to negotaiate and agree a plan where you do not dominate or control our community. We do not want to live in a GC state run by GCs.

You know better than me that we know nothing of what our leaders and your leaders are doing, and who is really responsible for the deadlock. If there is something both US and YOU we should do is just demonstrate in the streets so that everything that is discussed is made publicly available. Who gave them the right to negotiate and agree with the UN that nothing will be publicly anounced? See my point? We are given the impression from our media that is you who hold back the negotiations. You are given the impression it is us who hold back…. I hope you agree on me on this.

[Pyrpolizer]

First letter should read 3 /4 (3 quarters)

[Viewpoint]

Pyrpolizer

Ύ of my own village were also knocked down to make space for that huge military base. My house is still deserted on the remaining quarter, but all my relatives houses don’t exist anymore. They will be happy if they just get the land back. The same goes for you.

So we are in the same boat.

Yes our side ignited the Enosis bomb, how about your Taksim bomb? In fact you materialised your taksim dream exactly as it was pre-planned. So don’t give me all this crap it was all our fault, it was also your fault, and the way things turned out prove you are more responsible than us.

So let me put it this way if you had not have ignited the Enosis bomb the Taksim bomb would not have exploded. Do you really believe we should not have resisted and allowed you to call Cyprus Greece? The fact that we got were successful and you were not mean we are more to blame, great logic??***** I try to steer clear of playing the who is to blame more game its a endless pit.

So you can call Cyprus or the occupied part Turkish huh? Very good. Continue.

If you are kept out of running your own country, exiled to ghettos, discriminated against, live in poverty and always wake feeling the fear of annihilation then you have every right to exist as best you can.

But you ARE NOT taking care of them. Ask kifeas. Ask any other person you want. Just yesterday I met a guy who told me they knocked to the ground all his properties and they are currently building 54 villas (!!!) for foreigners in his own lands. In there they builded a huge lean-to something like a huge greenhouse were they house more than 400 workers from Turkey. In there those workers they sleep, they eat, they shit. And they work all day for less than $10 building 54 villas in his own property. And you tell me you take good care???? Are you trying to joke me or irridate me?

No I am not trying to deliberately irritate you but I did say;

Look Pyrpolizer I have stated in the past I will take care of your properties under the isolation imposed on us until or if we find a solution, is that ok?

So allow us other areas to develop economically so that we may not sell land to foreigners otherwise we can only develop in areas which will in turn effect yourselves. If only you could see that imposing isolation on us pushes us further away from you and deeper into the lap of Turkey.

I will never apply to the stupid commission and help them collect the 3-4 cases they need to present themselves legal to the ECHR.

We are waiting for ECHR to judge on whether this board will be deemed a viable internal remedy, If it is what will you do them reclaim your property? (I hope you get it)

Besides I don’t sell my properties. I want them back. What will I do with them? That’s my business. Nobody lives in my property but if someone were living I would go talk to him. If he tells me look I am poor I have nowhere to go, please let me stay, I would tell him stay as long as you want, I don’t want money. All I want is after you don’t need it anymore give it back to me (if I am still alive) or to my children. That’s all.

That is your right and if only we could find a solution then you would be able to do what you wish with your property.

Security and political equality is already secured within the concept of Federal solution. What we saw however in the AP is you wanted 2/3rds of our properties.

Which you rejected and do not want to utilize as a base for further negotiations. (The property issue was addressed more by international experts that included UN and EU representatives)

You know better than me that we know nothing of what our leaders and your leaders are doing, and who is really responsible for the deadlock. If there is something both US and YOU we should do is just demonstrate in the streets so that everything that is discussed is made publicly available. Who gave them the right to negotiate and agree with the UN that nothing will be publicly announced? See my point? We are given the impression from our media that is you who hold back the negotiations. You are given the impression it is us who hold back…. I hope you agree on me on this.

I agree.

[Pyrpolizer]

So let me put it this way if you had not have ignited the Enosis bomb the Taksim bomb would not have exploded. Do you really believe we should not have resisted and allowed you to call Cyprus Greece? The fact that we got were successful and you were not mean we are more to blame, great logic??

Yes you are more to blame because Enosis never meant to ethnically cleanse any of the minorities in Cyprus. It would simply mean Greek Governing. The same happened with all the islands in the Aegean. The one and single criteria to distribute those islands between Greece and Turkey was the majority of population. The Turks flourished in all Greek islands after annexation, the Greeks in the 2 islands that Turkey got (Imvros and Tenedos) simply vanished.

On the other hand Taksim always meant to ethnically cleanse the GCs from a thrird of Cyprus, moving by force vast amounts of population etc. exactly what happened during the Invasion. So for the total outcome in Cyprus you are much more responsible, and much more to be blamed.

If you are kept out of running your own country, exiled to ghettos, discriminated against, live in poverty and always wake feeling the fear of annihilation then you have every right to exist as best you can.

Remember this started with your argument that we wanted to call Cyprus Greece. So are you any better? You already call the occupied Turkish whereas we don’t call Cyprus Greece..Of course we are also to be blamed for the conditions of your life in the 60s but don’t tell me we are the only ones responsible.

So allow us other areas to develop economically so that we may not sell land to foreigners otherwise we can only develop in areas which will in turn effect yourselves. If only you could see that imposing isolation on us pushes us further away from you and deeper into the lap of Turkey.

You are asking for the impossible. How can we allow you any areas to develop when 90% of everything (privately owned) there belongs to us? Let you bring tourists en masse? Where will you put them isn’t it on our lands, on villas built on our lands, on hotels built on our lands? And what incentive will there ever be left for you to want a solution? At least now with this property bussiness we have a way to either stop it or if we don’t succeed then it will continue for some more years and then stop by itself. This property bussiness is not going to last for ever VP its going to stop one day. Furthermore for every villa you build you are actually importing 5 foreigners where would that leave you one day? Land prices are scy rocketing what will it happen when your children will need land to build their homes 20 years down the road? You think you discovered gold, I tell you are are actually playing with a new bomb, mark my words.

We are waiting for ECHR to judge on whether this board will be deemed a viable internal remedy, If it is what will you do them reclaim your property? (I hope you get it)

It will not pass.Even Talat said so. And no I will not claim anything from illegal authorities.

Which you rejected and do not want to utilize as a base for further negotiations. (The property issue was addressed more by international experts that included UN and EU representatives)

We rejected the AP not a Federal solution. As for those experts where are they to answer my questions, whether what they decided is in line with human rights, with UN charter, and with EU Aquis. If an expert says you should lose 2/3rds of your property, imagine what other preposterous conditions he had to satisfy to come to that conclussion. In fact you don’t have to imagine. Here: For the TCs to have the majority of land in the so called TC state the GCs must lose 2/3rds of theirs. See I am an expert too!

[Viewpoint]

Pyrpolizer

Yes you are more to blame because Enosis never meant to ethnically cleanse any of the minorities in Cyprus.

How can you be so sure? we could have also been placed 6ft under and long forgotten, this risk was to strong to be ignored and when ones life is threatened they will fight with everythign they have to save themselves.

It would simply mean Greek Governing.

How convenient and simply put, its only our biggest nightmare and you just casually put it forward like its a holiday in Butlins summer camp. Please Pyrpolizer dont insult my and other Tcs intelligence.

The same happened with all the islands in the Aegean. The one and single criteria to distribute those islands between Greece and Turkey was the majority of population. The Turks flourished in all Greek islands after annexation, the Greeks in the 2 islands that Turkey got (Imvros and Tenedos) simply vanished.

Crete? what happened to the Turks there or the Turks in Thrace but again we are not them and no one knows what our outcome would have been but I for one would not want to live in Greece under Greek rule.

On the other hand Taksim always meant to ethnically cleanse the GCs from a thrird of Cyprus, moving by force vast amounts of population etc. exactly what happened during the Invasion. So for the total outcome in Cyprus you are much more responsible, and much more to be blamed.

Taksim was the direct result of Enosis, without Enosis there would have been no Taksim it time you admitted you mistakes that if you had of embraced the Cypriot identity back then and included TCs then we would not have the Cyprus issue today, be brave admit your biggest error and you will feel better.

Remember this started with your argument that we wanted to call Cyprus Greece. So are you any better? You already call the occupied Turkish whereas we don’t call Cyprus Greece..Of course we are also to be blamed for the conditions of your life in the 60s but don’t tell me we are the only ones responsible.

Only because you failed other wise we would be Greece today. We had to survive thats why wwe are in the situation we are in today if we cannot find a solution then the TRNC will continue for many years to come something you really should have come to terms with by now. Find a solution and we will dismantle the TRNC for something better, but with no option we have the status quo.

You are asking for the impossible. How can we allow you any areas to develop when 90% of everything (privately owned) there belongs to us? Let you bring tourists en masse? Where will you put them isn’t it on our lands, on villas built on our lands, on hotels built on our lands? And what incentive will there ever be left for you to want a solution?

So keeping us economically hostage under inhumane emabargos is your way of keeping us wanting a solution? well it doesnt seem to work for the last 32 years how do you expect to get it to work now? This only make us more resilient and determined not to cave into GC pressure.

At least now with this property bussiness we have a way to either stop it or if we don’t succeed then it will continue for some more years and then stop by itself. This property bussiness is not going to last for ever VP its going to stop one day. Furthermore for every villa you build you are actually importing 5 foreigners where would that leave you one day? Land prices are scy rocketing what will it happen when your children will need land to build their homes 20 years down the road? You think you discovered gold, I tell you are are actually playing with a new bomb, mark my words.

Lets not go there its a very sensative issue for you guys and I do not want to say anything that will cause even more aggrivation but please act now rather than later to find a solution.

We rejected the AP not a Federal solution. As for those experts where are they to answer my questions, whether what they decided is in line with human rights, with UN charter, and with EU Aquis. If an expert says you should lose 2/3rds of your property, imagine what other preposterous conditions he had to satisfy to come to that conclussion. In fact you don’t have to imagine. Here: For the TCs to have the majority of land in the so called TC state the GCs must lose 2/3rds of theirs. See I am an expert too!

You rejected the only plan that was put to referendum they do not grow on trees but thats history now move on. If you are naive enough to feel that all these experts together with your GC representatives did not include human rights, with UN charter, and with EU Aquis allowing for our cuurent situation then you still believe in conspiracy theories that everyone is out to get the GCs.

That was the price for reunification you rejected it, end of story. You can wait for another plan which will incorporate all your demands but never forget we to can also say no in a resounding fashion and you have to respect our decision.

[Pyrpolizer]

How can you be so sure? we could have also been placed 6ft under and long forgotten

Because none of the Turks living on the Aegean islands of Greece was ever mistreated. They live happily and even receive positive discrimination like jobs in public sector.

How convenient and simply put, its only our biggest nightmare and you just casually put it forward like its a holiday in Butlins summer camp. Please Pyrpolizer dont insult my and other Tcs intelligence.

Compare it with what taksim meant.

Crete? what happened to the Turks there or the Turks in Thrace but again we are not them and no one knows what our outcome would have been but I for one would not want to live in Greece under Greek rule.

Crete? Simple. Population exchange agreement with the Greeks of Anatolia. In Trace you know better than me only half are Turks, and they themselves oppress the other half of muslims. Yet they all live happily and multiply in numbers. Do you know any population under oppression getting multiplied???

Taksim was the direct result of Enosis, without Enosis there would have been no Taksim it time you admitted you mistakes that if you had of embraced the Cypriot identity back then and included TCs then we would not have the Cyprus issue today, be brave admit your biggest error and you will feel better.

And I could say Enosis was the direct result of Ottoman oppression. Are we going to start counting what caused what?
I do admit my community’s mistakes. Will you ever admid that taksim was a much worse aim than Enosis. Jeez what we have today with 180,000 GC refugees + 50,000 TC refugees is the direct application of your taksim dream.

Only because you failed other wise we would be Greece today

In other words you succeeded is that what you want to say? Well, OK lets accept that. You complain that it was a mistake for us to be called Greece, however it is not a mistake for you to be called Turkish just because you succeded.

Find a solution and we will dismantle the TRNC for something better, but with no option we have the status quo.

To find a solution both sides must be willing to. I said before we do need to demonstrate so that the people of Cyprus get public information on what the leaders discuss. Then we will all know who is keeping the road for a solution closed.

So keeping us economically hostage under inhumane emabargos is your way of keeping us wanting a solution? well it doesnt seem to work for the last 32 years how do you expect to get it to work now? This only make us more resilient and determined not to cave into GC pressure.

You are keeping yourselves economically hostage. We simply refuse to help you out. It is our only weapon and our right. You return Varoshia and we will help you out. You cannot have the cake and eat it too.

You rejected the only plan that was put to referendum they do not grow on trees but thats history now move on…..

That Anan Plan was prepared within 2 months remember.Subsequent versions within weeks. So yes when there is an urgent need -by those who need a solution-another plan will be constructed BY US THIS TIME within a very short period..

If you are naive enough to feel that all these experts together with your GC representatives did not include human rights, with UN charter, and with EU Aquis allowing for our cuurent situation then you still believe in conspiracy theories that everyone is out to get the GCs.

Since you are so clever why don’t you explain me how losing 2/3rds of my property was according to the UN charter of human rights, and the EU Aquis?

That was the price for reunification you rejected it, end of story

Oh, I see so the experts had to account for us to pay a price. On the other hand 2 lines before you were saying everything was according to the Aquis, the UN, the human rights etc etc. How easily you condradict your ownself VP.

Anyway, why don’t you tell us what was the price you would pay for re-unification? To return something back from what you grabbed from us? To send a couple of settlers back, out of the thousands you flooded Cyprus with? Or your moving to the newly built houses the AP thought of just to let us get some of ours back? Tell me which of your human rights would you be deprived?

[Viewpoint]

Pyrpolizer

Because none of the Turks living on the Aegean islands of Greece was ever mistreated. They live happily and even receive positive discrimination like jobs in public sector.

You really need to go do some research and see at first hand what these people ar enot happy about. Besides I do not want to live under Greek rule, we signed up for an independent Cyprus which you had designs on to convert into Greece without my consent, that why all this trouble flared up. If you had only embraced Cypriotism with us included things would have been much better but for you this was not your intention form day one.

Compare it with what taksim meant.

Not being ruled by Greece, sounds a hell of a lot better than being assimilated into a Greek state, if you are so keen to become Greece then why dont you go live there?

And I could say Enosis was the direct result of Ottoman oppression. Are we going to start counting what caused what?
I do admit my community’s mistakes. Will you ever admid that taksim was a much worse aim than Enosis. Jeez what we have today with 180,000 GC refugees + 50,000 TC refugees is the direct application of your taksim dream.

Foe me the turning point for ruling ourselves came in 1960, it was an opportunity for the first time to build a Cypriot nation what did you do? please ask yourselves honestly, you messed up big time pushing us out and to extreme action to survive. The results of which are what we have today.

In other words you succeeded is that what you want to say? Well, OK lets accept that. You complain that it was a mistake for us to be called Greece, however it is not a mistake for you to be called Turkish just because you succeded.

This is like u slap me around for 11 years and then one day i slap you harder and take part of what we are sharing and say i dont want to share with you anymore I cannot stand the slaps everyday and go my own way. I have the right to call myself what I want as we have now parted, you have no control over me and you will never slap me again.
I got away I suceeded from leaving a situation that would have taken me into non existence, you are the wife beater and I am the wife that got away with big alimoney to protect my future.

To find a solution both sides must be willing to. I said before we do need to demonstrate so that the people of Cyprus get public information on what the leaders discuss. Then we will all know who is keeping the road for a solution closed.

I agree.

You are keeping yourselves economically hostage. We simply refuse to help you out. It is our only weapon and our right. You return Varoshia and we will help you out. You cannot have the cake and eat it too.

So the direct flights are stopped by the TCs? we only want the same rights that you see fit for yourselves.

That Anan Plan was prepared within 2 months remember.Subsequent versions within weeks. So yes when there is an urgent need -by those who need a solution-another plan will be constructed BY US THIS TIME within a very short period..

Feel free to do so but never forget we to have the right to say no and you will have to respect our democratic decision, that OK?

Since you are so clever why don’t you explain me how losing 2/3rds of my property was according to the UN charter of human rights, and the EU Aquis?

This part of the plan I to do not agree with so I will not argue it.

Oh, I see so the experts had to account for us to pay a price. On the other hand 2 lines before you were saying everything was according to the Aquis, the UN, the human rights etc etc. How easily you condradict your ownself VP

You can view it how you wish but these people were experts I met many of them and under the complicated issues of the Cyprus issue this is about as good as they could make it, the other alternative could have been that you got nothing which would have been far worse.

Anyway, why don’t you tell us what was the price you would pay for re-unification? To return something back from what you grabbed from us? To send a couple of settlers back, out of the thousands you flooded Cyprus with? Or your moving to the newly built houses the AP thought of just to let us get some of ours back? Tell me which of your human rights would you be deprived?

I would be willing to take compensation for my property in south or get an equivelent in the north. I would be willing to dillute Turkeys guarantee after a transition period and Turkey s entry into EU. I would send all armies away. Anything else you would like?

[Pyrpolizer]

You really need to go do some research and see at first hand what these people ar enot happy about. Besides I do not want to live under Greek rule, we signed up for an independent Cyprus which you had designs on to convert into Greece without my consent, that why all this trouble flared up. If you had only embraced Cypriotism with us included things would have been much better but for you this was not your intention form day one

The point of discussion was to compare how evil Enosis compared to Taksim was. You are missing the point.

Not being ruled by Greece, sounds a hell of a lot better than being assimilated into a Greek state, if you are so keen to become Greece then why dont you go live there?

Ditto

Foe me the turning point for ruling ourselves came in 1960, it was an opportunity for the first time to build a Cypriot nation what did you do? please ask yourselves honestly, you messed up big time pushing us out and to extreme action to survive. The results of which are what we have today.

I already admitted the mistakes of my community. I asked to tell me if your community were Virgin Marys.

you are the wife beater and I am the wife that got away with big alimoney to protect my future.

I liked the part saying you are the wife
Fact of life after divorce the man is always on great demand whereas the woman lives in isolation

So the direct flights are stopped by the TCs? we only want the same rights that you see fit for yourselves.

Of course they are. Because you are an ilegal entity with all the backround that establishes illegality. I see fit to have my properties and my lands back, live in them, goverened by my own people, and you deprive me this right. Is this the same right you talk about?

You can view it how you wish but these people were experts I met many of them and under the complicated issues of the Cyprus issue this is about as good as they could make it

I know.To deprive me my rights. That’s why I rejected it!

he other alternative could have been that you got nothing which would have been far worse.

Wrong! The other alternative would be to reject signing away my rights. And that’s what we did.

I would be willing to take compensation for my property in south or get an equivelent in the north. I would be willing to dillute Turkeys guarantee after a transition period and Turkey s entry into EU. I would send all armies away. Anything else you would like?

Not enough TC land for even 1/10th of GC refugees to exchange. Feel free to accept a plan that will give you bonds (for compensation) next time. Turkeys guarantee and presense of foreign armies are not human rights, and its questionable whether they are even "rights".

[repulsewarrior]

dear my cyprus, this is my cyprus:

1. take today's map of Cyprus, take a bag of jewels and spill them on the map. Give each jewel a name, in the south Turkish, in the north their original names. Let migrants and the displaced find their homes, in these jewels, and call them Cantons.

2. reform the Republic of Cyprus Constitution so that the legislature is bi-cameral, and that each citizen has three votes for their representation in this Parliament.

a. The President and this government lead the Upper House, having won a majority of seats. His/Her party, like the others, offer a Turkish Cypriot representative, and a Greek representative for each electoral riding, where from two lists each voter chooses one from each.

b. The Lower House, its Representatives, elected as Independants, one from each riding, fill the seats in the government's committees, so that through their Speaker they can debate on legislation and vote through consensus.

3. Greek Cypriots found for themselves a system of self representation, (a government) where their primary considerations are balanced with a Constitution recognising their will to serve a number of minorities.

4. Turkish Cypriots reform their Constitution, to reflect the same.

There you have it: not two zones, but bi-zonal; not two communities, but bi-communal.

What do you think.