Cyprus-Forum.com

[reportfromcyprus]

"Where is the substance in your posts? I have seen no substance but only nonsense clichés and repetitions of what the Turkish propaganda tries to pass around with the help of its Anglo-American friends and paid agents (journalists, diplomats and academics!) Tell us what you suggest we do and why? To get the Annan plan back and re-vote it? That is perhaps your only suggestion, along the wishes of some foreigners, but unfortunately for you this cannot be done, because the people have already decided! Anything else?"

On what do you base this completely biased allegation? Show us your books, your texts, your factual sources that my posts are based on turkish propaganda, and they'd better be in Turkish, otherwise your posts are made into complete nonsense, Kifeas.

I suggest that the government start making some substantive moves towards detente and rapprochement before we get left even further behind in regional developments.

[Kifeas]

Kifeas misses the point that without trust between the communities, there is no basic unity.

Based on which of my posts did you extract the conclusion that I miss the point that trust is one of the essential ingredients for unity to be achieved?

What we have is an enforced separation of the two communities.

And who has enforced this separation? Do you know?
And who continues to enforce this separation? Do you again know?

The lawyers on each side are encouraging divorce - wasn't it the present president who went on television to encourage the GC community to reject the UN plan?

I see you are becoming a champion in regurgitating clichés and slogans?
Where is the logic in the above claiming of yours that because Papadopoulos is encouraging divorce, just because he rejected a biased, unfair and unworkable solution proposal? Do you know what logic is? And which are the lawyers that encourage divorce, among the GC community?

Wasn't it Denktas who was relieved that the plan didn't go through? Yes it was.

And?
Is this the kind of logic you apply, so that you conclude that Papadopoulos also encourages divorce? Have you ever taken an IQ test? I suggest you never do that because you will become very depressed from the result.

No matter what the justification either side has, a divorce is inevitable without goodwill, compromise and looking to the future instead of the past.

And in which way the GC leadership could have shown its goodwill, but it deliberately failed to do so, so that your above assertion is justified as far as the GC community is concerned?

Point 1: Based on your insulting manner and refusal to listen to anyone else. Your whole attitude oozes distrust, anger, bitterness and fear.

Point 2: Turkey has enforced this separation - illegal or not - it's enforced.

Point 3: He's encouraging divorce because there's precious little progress made towards a solution! The lawyer reference is a METAPHOR.

Point 4: Too silly to even consider.

Point 5: When the borders were opened, all possible efforts should have been made to create bicommunal events, joint administration institutions, cooperation across the borders in general. Where are those initiatives?

On your point 1: I only say that when I post in this forum I am only concerned about what sense the most intelligent forum members will make, and not what some dump Brit like bakaliaros, that went in the north and bought stolen property and thus decided to adopt the Turkish propaganda, or what someone like VP who is here as a sworn promoter of partition, will think about my posts!

On your point 2: I knew you had doubts as to whether the separation was legal or not, as well as the invasion, ethnic cleansing and occupation, nevertheless, at least you admit that it was enforced by Turkey and not by the GCs! What I do not understand is why you try to equally blame the GC leadership for this separation, if you accept that it is Turkey that did. Unless of course you believe that now it is the GC side that does so, just because it rejected the Annan plan!

On your point 3: And based on what reason or fact the little progress so far is due to Papadopoulos? And why it isn't due to the Turkish side which is so far insisting that the Annan plan should be the basis of the solution -without changes or at best with very few decorative ones?

On your point 4: Yes, you indeed need to try and improve your rational and analytical thinking skills, and not to buy at face value whatever nonsense you read around and regurgitate it here in the form of empty clichés and slogans!

On your point 5: Do you by any chance know which side has done its best and outmost to sabotage all the bi-communal activities that indeed were taking place in a much higher frequency before? Do you know which side's media is doing its best to sabotage the positive climate between the two communities? It is not the GC side, but the TC one and its media, seconded by some journalists and miniature political figures on this side, that kept feeding the TCs with rubbish like how much a Turk hater Papadopoulos is, how much against re-unification he is, how much the GC side is against a solution because we do not want to share anything with the TCs, etc, etc! All these treacherous nonsense has given to those mentioned above in the north all the material and arguments they needed to reproduce among the TC community, in order to poison them further and disorient them from the real factors and obstacles against a solution, which are to be found only accross the sea, north of Cyprus, in Turkey.

[reportfromcyprus]

Let's calm down here. I'm going to be very clear on where I stand:

I want peace, I want a solution, I'm tired of living under constant tension. I want the government to start behaving maturely, to do its utmost to welcome bicommunal initiatives and show some progress towards reunification.

I think Turkey's occupation is illegal.

I think the Turkish Cypriots would welcome reunification, as a people, as they showed in 2004 when they accepted a reunification plan.

I think Greek Cypriots would welcome reunification if the leadership prepared them for it.

It's up to the government to take the initiative and NEGOTIATE actively towards some real movement towards peace.

[Kifeas]

Let's calm down here. I'm going to be very clear on where I stand:

I want peace, I want a solution, I'm tired of living under constant tension. I want the government to start behaving maturely, to do its utmost to welcome bicommunal initiatives and show some progress towards reunification.

The government does behave maturely, and it does welcome bi-communal initiatives, as long as they are within the context of the overall legal parameters and do not undermine the rights of the RoC! You just need to get rid of this fixation! The progress towards re-unification is not something that depends only on the GCs or on the RoC! If we have something specific in mind that confirms the opposite, you may just provide it here!

I think the Turkish Cypriots would welcome reunification, as a people, as they showed in 2004 when they accepted a reunification plan.

The majority of TCs may welcome re-unification, but their leadership and Turkey wants a “re-unification” only on the basis of their illegitimate terms and objectives, most of which they managed to pass into the last Annan plan that rightfully failed, thanks to their Anglo-American friends that put it together!

I think Greek Cypriots would welcome reunification if the leadership prepared them for it.

The Greek Cypriots are ready to welcome re-unification, and they do not need special psychological treatment for this. What the GCs are not ready to welcome is any “re-unification” on the basis of the illegitimate terms and objectives of the Turkish side, just for the sake of re-unification!

It's up to the government to take the initiative and NEGOTIATE actively towards some real movement towards peace.

When you will manage to get over this fixation that the government is opposing a re-unification solution, you will also see that it does take initiatives towards real movement! It seems you do not seriously follow the current affairs events, otherwise you would have known about all the initiatives that it has been undertaking all along that have also brought Gambari in Cyprus last July, and which side is the one filibustering in the new initiative process currently under way. Probably you cannot follow the Greek language media in Cyprus, and definitely you won't learn anything in this direction from the “Cyprus Mail!”

[reportfromcyprus]

I'm perfectly up-to-date on the developments, Kifeas, and have reports about them on an almost daily basis.

I do hope for things to develop positively, but they are not moving fast enough. We had a wholesale rejection of the last reunification plan - fair enough, that was a democratic decision, nobody disputes it. But I don't think anyone meant that the WHOLE process had to be started from scratch.

And now we have started from scratch with the baby steps of these technical committees - I'm going to be 100 years old by the time anything actually evolves from these discussions.

[bakala]

reportfromcyprus

you are wasting your time debating anything with them, They refuse to play ball , instead because you don't agree with everything they say you are classed as some kind of idiot

Its the kind of thinking that started all the troubles so long ago, They refuse to admit that the Greek puppet government in power in those days wanted all the island and in essence the Turkish Cypriots didn't want Enosis, a lot of Greek Cypriots didn't want it either but they were simply disposed of,

They keep harping on about illegal occupation and wont admit that unless the Turks landed the Turkish Cypriot people would have been consigned to History Via mass graves. Instead they call the intervention by Turkey an invasion, this justifies there claim to be the injured party, They just cant see that the Actions of the Greek Puppet government against the Turkish Cypriots prior to 74 made the intervention by Turkey inevitable,

The arguments from them are not about Human Rights, they are about land, that is the real reason the land issue crops up in every time they reel off the same old boring posts,

The land in the north belongs to the people who inhabit the north, the Greek Government has no jurisdiction here and never will have, there are some very serious looking Turkish Troops here and one of the biggest standing Armies in the world only 40 miles away, The Turkish Air force has done a deal with America for 200 F15 fighter bombers,

Who the hell is going to mess with Turkey ?

[andri_cy]

LOL both sides are hopeless. Bakala, you think because RFC is arguing with Kifeas she is on your side. I believe you are wrong. Kifeas you believe because she doesnt totally agree with you that she is against you. You are wrong also. You guys are both the opposite nationalist of each side. With people like you we will never find a solution. Of course both sides are mad and hurt but with people going who's gonna mess with Turkey or calling whoever doesnt agree with you ignorant and silly isnt gonna help anyone. No wonder we have been split up for 32 years.

[Pyrpolizer]

I was referring to the safety of the TCs at that time and the fear of being annihilated was paramount for them to move into ghettos in order to save their lives. As for the state in a state well what did you expect them to do having been kicked out of government by greedy GCs who did not even adhere to their own Supreme court judgements and proposed to change the constitution taking away the rights that were put in place to protect the TC community.

The State within a State situation was pre-planned by the TC leadership, and the GC nationalists were so stupid as to help. If the constitution were allowed to work with the separate Municipalities and stuff we would again end up with a State within a State situation. Simply the 1960 constitution was unworkable and would lead to partition either peacefully or with civil unrest.

The annihilation of those that dared live outside the enclaves was always a genuine fear and could have been executed by GCs at anytime thank god and Turkey they acted before that time came.

I don’t agree. No reason to repeat why.

The risk was very evident is was only a matter of time that the annihilation of the TCs would occur, the danger and threat alone were sufficient for Turkey to act.

I don’t agree either. I explained before why. To make an Invasion you need months for preparation. Turkey was already prepared, was just looking for an excuse. Between 1968 and 1974 the TCs were totally out of the mess in Cyprus.

He accepted it on his own grounds and not on the grounds of the EU where it does not state the return of Maras/Varosha for the lifting of isolation on the TC community.

And who told you any EU official can make oral promises for an occupied part of any Country without the consent of that Country? The Aquis is sustained in the occupied area, so why should you ask or expect anything from the EU?
The so called isolation of the TCs is a "self isolation". Return to legal conditions, aplly the EU Aquis including our human rights and THEN ask for returns. Furthermore why are you so greedy to expect to get something from the EU without giving anything in return? Give Varoshia back to its legal owners. You don’t need it, its a ghost town. That would really boost the solution everyone is looking for.

Yes a figure as high as 2000 has been quoted for GCs killed in the coup. the missing are also being located on your own side where you have a court case which will confirm this.

He,he he. Only 400 men took part in the coup.And only about 30 from the side of Makarios. Those figures are grossly exagerated. The priest of the central cementrary testified he burried about 30 people. Relatives know exactly when their own people disappeared. And among the 6000 reported dead during the Invasion not more than 10 persons disappeared at an unknown date -most propably during the week of the coup. You right one of them was already revealed.

But do you feel volume confirms who is right and who is wrong?

No but it is relevant as to whether there was in fact an attempt for genocide or not. There was an attempt for genocide the GCs in 1974, whereas there was no such attempt against the TCs within those 14 years.

However you manipulate these figures to score points the underlying factor is that any act of war is detestable and should be avoided at all costs but when people are in danger of annihilation you have no time to wait and see the result, you have to act which is what Turkey did.

No I even reported the maximum number of dead people from the coup (1500 ) which is reported in Turkish sources which even myself don’t believe as it is obviously grossly exagerated. Surprise surprise you just increased the number from 1500 to 2000!!!! I am not trying to manipulate anything…
Like I said Turkey just pre-planned the Invasion was just looking for the right excuse. And I personally believe the Invasion was already agreed between the Greek Junta, CIA, and Turkey. Only a stupid would expect Turkey to stay inactive after the coup. So it was all staged. Turkey would take a part in the north, then according to the agreement the remaining Cyprus would have Enosis, and the part in the North would also unite with Turkey. In the end Turkey took much more that what all 3 agreed, thus the stupid Greek Junta Generals fell.

[Pyrpolizer]

In 1974 a couple of weeks before Turkey landed the intervention force a very good mate of mine was serving in the Royal Navy on the Aircraft carrier HMS Hermes. at the time they were stationed in the Gulf, the Gulf fleet was ordered to move to the Mediterranean,

At the same time Royal marine commandos on winter training in Norway were ordered to Gibraltar, Infantry ,engineer Tank and artillery units were moved from the front line in Germany. they were assembled for transport to Gibraltar, High level discussions were going on between British and Spanish diplomats to allow British armed forces to be moved through Spain to Gibraltar. ( A very sensitive issue at the time )

The Gulf Fleet Had to sail around Africa because the British war cabinet wouldn't allow the fleet to sail through the Suez canal.

Britain was preparing to intervene but Turkey beat them too it, they had prevaricated so long discussing if to intervene or not, that they left it too late,

Totally irrelevant and wrong. Echevit visited England prior to Invasion asking for joint action and England refused. The preparations you saw were just in case Turkey would enter the British bases.

Because of the Coup Turkey couldn't wait any longer and once preparations were under way the intervention couldn't be delayed.

it takes months or years to prepare an Invasion/landing to an island. Remember the Fawlklands remember Iraq. Not just a week. It was all pre-planned. They were just waiting for the excuse.

I would very seriously doubt that under kleridis that the Turkish Cypriots were safe, and i would very much debate that not a single Turkish Cypriot died when Kleridis briefly held power.

Well debate it then. I already told you not a single TC was touched during the one week Sampson was in power, not even one when Klerides took over and not even one until the beginning of the second phase of the Turkish Invasion -during agreed ceasfire- 3 weeks later.

The 2000 or so Greek Cypriots that died, died in Greek V Greek fighting those who opposed Enosis were eradicated by those who supported it

Here we go again. So you know the numbers better than us? There is a list for each and every GC person who died and we all know who died during the coup. These numbers only exist in Turkish propaganda sites for the sole reason of diminishing their own slaughtering..

lets not forget the Turkish Cypriots were driven into enclaves , the suggestion that they had formed a state within a state is ridiculous, they were driven into tiny areas just like the Jews in the second world war and cut off from the outside world and from each other.

They were driven into enclaves by whom? They were not let out by whom? It was not a state within a State??? Man it even HAD A NAME. Ask the TCs to tell you.

The Statement you made that " the coup was staged so that Turkey would use it for an excuse to invade " is preposterous beyond words.

It looks preposterous because its the first time you heard it. Do some search outside Turkish propaganda sites and you will find more evidence.We ve seen with our own eyes what the highest ranking Greek officers did in Cyprus when the Invasion started, we ve seen with our own eyes what other Greek officers were doing. To give you an indication: Tell me which Army General would respond to a call from his units to open fire at an Invading force and he orders them NOT to? Which Army officer would respond to a report that the Turks are advancing towards Famagusta, by opening his map and saying "nonsense Famagusta is not in the plan, impossible, that’s rumors." These actions occured not once but hundreds of times during the Invasion by most mainland Greek officers. Every GC soldier throwing away his gun and renegating in 1974 was saying the same "fight for what it is a treason everything is staged". The Turkish side rejects these claims saying they are not true, because they did fire at us. Well the whole truth is that there were Unit commanders who simply disobeyed the orders and did open fire to protect themselves. Also other units who lost communication and acted at will….
But yes the general feeling after 1974 was that Greece simply sold us.

The intervention was called an invasion by the Greeks and the name stuck. the safe area in the north became the Occupied lands and the name stuck, Turkey won the war but lost the propaganda war to the masters of deception the Greeks, and the masters of deception still influence those who inhabit the boards with their lies and half truths,

Do you know what was the only right Turkey had to intervene? Only to restore the constitution. Turkey intervened just to occupy and ethnically cleanse the GCs. That was an invasion by all standards, and the area they occupied and still occupy is an occupied area by all standards.
The Greeks are not masters of deception. They are masters of logic and we taught lagic to the whole western world including your own nation.There is no point trying to convince illogical and biased persons like you. The truth we say is the absolute truth and most logical beings including the vast majority of the British people do understand it. You personally are an exception to the rule.

There are elements in the Greek Cypriot community who only want to dominate the whole island they never think of sharing it with their Turkish Cypriot nieghbors, they will settle for nothing less than total domination of the whole island and dominion over the Turksih Cypriots, thats why partition is the only answer because the Turksi Cypriots will not under any circumstances trust again a Greek Cypriot goverment and i dont blame them.

So partition is the only answer???? At last! You spouted it out shameless foreigner! I can fully understand why you advocate and promote partition, this is the only way for you to secure the stolen GC property you already grabbed illegally. We will never accept to donate any part of our Country to anyone, and be sure you personally will soon have to pay the consequences of your illegal actions in the occupied. The Orams case will strike you like a hammer as soon as the EU defines what protocol 10 means. I wonder what you will be supporting after you lose your own assets in the UK.

[Pyrpolizer]

Since you continue to insist propagandising in favour of partition, (regardless of the numerous factual mistakes in your little narration above and contrary to the official policy of the current Turkish Cypriot leadership,) I have yet to see your map of Cyprus with the 18% of the partitioned area for the Turkish Cypriots. Why is it taking you so long to present us with such a map Bakarialo? Is it difficult for you to decide which 18% of Cyprus to cut off from the rest?

Most propably because any way he might have tried his villa built on stolen GC land falls out.

how on earth do you think the Greek Cypriots can insist on a split of 80:20 of the land ?
the North is the North and the south the south. i dont see why the Turkish Cypriots should hand over any of the land they now occupy, why should they ?

Wow, what a genius!