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Where do we go from here?

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Where do we go from here?

Further (and extensive) UN brokered negotiations, to achieve a substantially better plan.
7
70%
A short round of UN brokered negotiations, in order to improve the Annan Plan as far as possible.
2
20%
The Annan Plan should be brought back without revisions.
0
No votes
We should abandon the UN Process, and seek a solution through other means.
1
10%
No interest in a solution.
0
No votes
 
Total votes : 10

Postby Piratis » Sun Dec 12, 2004 12:49 pm

Actualy the usage and meaning are the same. You have a responsibility to do x, y or z and you are responsible for action x,y and z are not seperate meanings at all.


When we talk about equal responsibilities, we mean responsibilities to the state. If you take any additional responsibilities (e.g. within your family) or you are responsible for something bad happening (e.g. "X is responsible for the death of thousands") this kind of responsibilities are clearly different and not something we all share equally.
Is this so hard for you to understand?


What a ridiculous statement given the history of Cyprus.


The history of Cyprus also includes the era where the Ottomans were ruling Cyprus. Should we start talking about that?
You are clearly using the past selectively as an excuse in order to achieve something that will benefit you on our loss.

Democracy can mean domination


A good democracy is the best system possible. Actually, democracy is one of the top principles that personally I am not willing to sacrifice in the name of some sort of fake unity.

You had better wait for your change in the balance of power


We will. What we are asking for are: Democracy, human rights, independence. These are things that worth waiting for and worth fighting for. I am sorry that you want something deferent from this widely accepted principles in order to screw us. Unfortunately you give us no other choice.


People like Piratis hold their views in all sincerity, and out of a genuine concern for Cyprus, but they are indeed a minority amongst Greek Cypriots


As Erolz said before, this minority-majority thing is 'fluid'. People don't talk about this much, because politicians don't talk about it. If a solution is found that will include "equality of communities" then my personal opinion is that this problem will be the number one reason for the next (inevitable) intercomunal fights that will lead not to an illegal occupation this time, but to a legal partition (which is the ultimate goal of Turkey, do you think they gave it up??)

In any case, I have no problem to belong in a minority. If the majority decides otherwise, this decision will be fully respected. Personally I will simply sell most of my property and take it abroad, and leave here only some investments that will benefit from the "re-unification".
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Postby metecyp » Sun Dec 12, 2004 10:27 pm

Alexandros Lordos wrote:The real majority (the silent majority, I like to call it) is willing to accept a settlement based on Bizonality and Political Equality of the two communities, so long as it is more secure - and more fair to refugees - than the Annan Plan proposal.

I really hope this is true. Otherwise, I don't know how we'll ever reach to a solution.
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Postby pantelis » Mon Dec 13, 2004 3:35 am

Regardless of how the political system of united Cyprus starts out with, if it does not lead to true parliamentary Democracy, it will eventually collapse.

What do I mean by a parliamentary Democracy?

Political parties, not ethnic or religious parties, need to develop, that would represent in the parliament, or the government if they become strong enough, citizens with common ideals and different ethnic or religious backgrounds.

Out of curiosity, I have searched the political parties in Israel. Take a look.
http://judaism.about.com/library/1_poli ... es_sum.htm

Now, please read what worked and most that did not. Pleas read it.

http://www.mecheng.adelaide.edu.au/~bda ... -Paper.pdf

My point is that, we sometimes become too blind to see what sits on our nose. It is easier to understand and wise up, from the problems, difficulties and conflict of some third party, than to put aside our own passions and let logic guide us to peace and harmony.

Do you think we can ever achieve an American style "melting pot" in Cyprus, where people see each other for what they are, rather than where they came from?

On a different thought, now that the "cold war is over", do you think that the communist parties in Cyprus (TCs & GCs) could unite to an absolute majority in a united parliament, thus forming an intergraded government. Would the domestic and foreign interests ever allow such a scenario?
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Postby Alexandros Lordos » Mon Dec 13, 2004 8:32 am

Hmm, do we still have communist parties in Cyprus? :)

Just joking ...

On a more serious note: I personally believe that, while political equality, safeguards for TCs etc. are principles to be fully respected, at the same time we should not lose sight of the need for a political system that is free of unnecessary deadlocks (as Piratis says) and a political life governed by issues rather than racial origin (as Pantelis says). Somehow, a sensible balance needs to be found in the trade off between functionality and political equality ... none of us, GC or TC, would be happy if we end up with a dysfunctional solution.

As to the idea for bicommunal parties after a solution - I am all for it. Not just communist parties, but also socialist, centre and right wing ... In fact, I think that integrated parties are a sine quo non for a politically functional solution.

Do people here think that the Annan Plan would lead to the development of integrated parties? If yes, thanks to which provision? If No, what is lacking? IMO, the fact that the presidential council would be elected as an integrated group would be a force favoring the development of bicommunal parties. But I am not sure how the overall dynamic would play out ...
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Postby erolz » Mon Dec 13, 2004 10:34 am

Alexandros Lordos wrote:political life governed by issues rather than racial origin


Cyprus was born out of issues driven by racial origin - thats the problem and it continues today. Even before Cyprus exists as an independent nation right up to today - political life was and is governed by racial origin. That is the legacy of enosis (and its TC counterpart).

You 'ideal' is a noble one but you can not run before you can walk (as the old saying goes). As things stand there is not a political decision made in Cyprus (north or south) pre 74 and post that has not been dominated by 'racial origin'.

Nothing that is written on paper can create unity and brotherhood (sisterhood / peoplehood), if that ideal does not live in our hearts. It did not live in our hearts in the past and it does not live in our hearts today. The best we can do today is to try and find a way to create the best environment for it take seed and grow in our hearts.

People talk about their 'GC' and 'TC' brothers but we do not consider each other to be brothers in our hearts. If we did we would never have allowed the things that have happened to our brothers to have happened. When your brother is hurting or in need you give to them freely and without though of recompense or return. You do it because they are your brother. When have the TC or GC communites (as communites) EVER behaved in this manner?
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Postby Alexandros Lordos » Mon Dec 13, 2004 12:26 pm

Erol,

"You can not run before you can walk" ... I agree with you. So long as we have running as our ultimate goal ... :wink:

I also agree that the sense of brotherhood must first develop. We often forget the psychological parameters of the Cyprus Problem, and focus excessively on the legal side (which ofcourse is important also, in its own way)

To be honest with you though, I think (from experience) that most Greek Cypriots either have warm feelings towards Turkish Cypriots or they don't have any feelings either way ... I have not met so far any "Turkish Cypriot bashers" amongst GCs ...

What we lack is sufficient everyday human contact, so that our positive predisposition towards each other begins to translate into practical concern and assistance ...
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Postby brother » Mon Dec 13, 2004 12:36 pm

Alex you are right but do remember that their will be problems like tc/gc bashers as the prejudice in some idiots is still well and truely alive, what ideas would you have to combat these and what punishments would you think would deter these incidents.
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Postby Alexandros Lordos » Mon Dec 13, 2004 12:45 pm

If there is going to be a federal anti-terrorist unit, I think it should be totally bicommunal, so for instance in a two-man team one will be GC and the other TC ... this will give the message that we are fighting intercommunal violence together.

And if it can be proven that a crime is racially motivated, it should receive extra punishment, at least for an interim period until we totally get over this intercommunal violence stupidity ...
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Postby Piratis » Mon Dec 13, 2004 1:06 pm

You 'ideal' is a noble one but you can not run before you can walk


The problem is that why would the TCs want to 'run' when they will benefit the most by 'crawling'? Remember, we are talking about humans here, not aliens. If we give to the TCs super privileges, they will never let them go voluntarily. To learn how to run we need not only time, but a motive as well.

This is why I suggested several times that specific transitional periods should exist. (5-10-15 years)

This way we will have the time to learn how to run, and we will all have a motive to learn how to run because we will know that just 'crawling' will not be an option in the future.
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Postby insan » Mon Dec 13, 2004 1:30 pm

If there is going to be a federal anti-terrorist unit, I think it should be totally bicommunal, so for instance in a two-man team one will be GC and the other TC ... this will give the message that we are fighting intercommunal violence together.

And if it can be proven that a crime is racially motivated, it should receive extra punishment, at least for an interim period until we totally get over this intercommunal violence stupidity ...



This is a very good idea...
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