Cyprus-Forum.com

[erolz]

Should TC have a right to block the kind of legislation I gave as an example (limits on non EU investment) or not?

No. I disagree with "blocking" in this case. The decisions should be taken for the benefit of Cypriots as a whole. If a decision that will benefit Cypriots as a whole will have a negative effect on a group of the population then the solution is not this group to block the decision and harm the interests of the majority. The solution is to arrange it in such a way that this group will have the least negative consequences possible. (e.g. by being compensated)

and if the GC majority simply ignore the negative effects of such legisaltion as they are all consequences suffered only by the 'old enemy of Hellenic aspirations' and force through the legisaltion without any regard for these negative effects on the TC community - what then? Is it just 'tough luck' on the TC? Let's face it the history of how GC have considered and accomodated TC concerns and wishes , when we were united, is not exactly inspiring is it.

Your examples of other 'groups' is not comparable imo. You take examples where the groups are 'fluid' depending on the issue. On one issue the group is made up of one set of people. On another it is made up of a different group of people. The things that affect the TC community differently to GC community allow no such 'fluidity'. TC will always be TC. They will always be a numerical minority. It is one thing to be in a minority of opinion on a given issue in the knowledge that you may well be in a majpority of opinion in another. It is a totaly different thing to ALWAYS be in a minority position, in your own (shared) homeland. Can you really not see this difference.

[Piratis]

This is why all Cypriots should elect the government together. Not separate elections for TCs and GCs. This way, the 18% of the population is a number that can not be ignored when presidents are elected with 1-2% margin. Nobody will want to dissatisfy TCs, and democracy will work the way it should. If we have separate elections then indeed what you say can happen since a somebody that is elected only by one group will seek to satisfy that group primarily and will not care much about the other irrelevant with his election group.

It is one thing to be in a minority of opinion on a given issue in the knowledge that you may well be in a majpority of opinion in another. It is a totaly different thing to ALWAYS be in a minority position

Apart from Language, Culture and Religion I fail to see how a TC will always be in a minority position.

If we start discussing things unrelated to the Cyprus problem, e.g. about economy, or about environment, or about issues like abortion etc, do you think that all GCs will take one position and TCs the other? It really doesn't make sense.

The 'fluidity' exists with TCs just like any other group.

[erolz]

Apart from Language, Culture and Religion I fail to see how a TC will always be in a minority position.

If we start discussing things unrelated to the Cyprus problem, e.g. about economy, or about environment, or about issues like abortion etc, do you think that all GCs will take one position and TCs the other? It really doesn't make sense.

The 'fluidity' exists with TCs just like any other group.

Once more

On ANY issue that effects the TC community in a materialy different way as to how the GC community is affected, TC will ALWAYS be in a minority. Will always be subject to and dependent on GC 'good will' towards the TC. You state that such situations could and would only occur on issues related to language, culture or religion. This is just not the case. ENOSIS was one historic example that was related to foreign policy and sovrenty (all concernes re your 3 areas related to ENOSIS would just be 'answered' by you will have full _indivudal_ rights with or wothout ENOSIS). A more realistic example today is the one I have given above, which is clearly to do with economy. The 'best' protection you have been able to offer me as a TC to such an example is 'GC will not ignore your concerns'. Well I am sorry Piratis but if that is the 'best' you can do to sooth such concerns then it's just not good enough.

[erolz]

Turkish Cypriots are equally responsible for 63-74.

and once again.

How quickly and easily you grant 'equality' to the TC community when it comes to blame and responsibilites, yet when it comes to rights (the natural companion to responsibilites) this ability disapears like mist when the sun comes up.

Surely if the communites are not equal as communites (as you insist when it comes to benefits of such equality of communites) then you must accept that on balance (and all other things being equal) that GC were 4 times more responsible for the events of 63-74. Yet you talk of equal blame and responsibilites of the two communites. This to me is to want to have it 'both ways'. TC as a community can have equality of blame and responsibility as a community but not equality of rights as a community.

[Piratis]

How quickly and easily you grant 'equality' to the TC community when it comes to blame and responsibilites, yet when it comes to rights (the natural companion to responsibilites) this ability disapears like mist when the sun comes up.

Rights and responsibilities are one thing. Blame is another. Have you seen any law thats says: "All citizens share equal blame for everything that happens in the country". If it was like this we would all be in jail for some time and nobody would be in jail for life.

It is not my fault if TCs have a large part of the blame. I didn't "grant" the blame as you claim, TCs "won" this blame by their actions.

When I talk about "TC blame" I am talking about the blame of the individual TCs that made those actions, and not the whole TC community.

So it is all about individual people. Rights and Responsibilities should be equal among each citizen. The "blame" is not distributed. The more wrongs you do, the more blame you as an individual will have.

[Piratis]

On ANY issue that effects the TC community in a materialy different way as to how the GC community is affected, TC will ALWAYS be in a minority. Will always be subject to and dependent on GC 'good will' towards the TC. You state that such situations could and would only occur on issues related to language, culture or religion. This is just not the case. ENOSIS was one historic example that was related to foreign policy and sovrenty (all concernes re your 3 areas related to ENOSIS would just be 'answered' by you will have full _indivudal_ rights with or wothout ENOSIS). A more realistic example today is the one I have given above, which is clearly to do with economy. The 'best' protection you have been able to offer me as a TC to such an example is 'GC will not ignore your concerns'. Well I am sorry Piratis but if that is the 'best' you can do to sooth such concerns then it's just not good enough.

A TC is a citizen of the country like a GC. The government many times takes decisions that are against my interests. Should I have a veto power too?

Anyways, in my "2 solutions post" I proposed an alternative solution where the TCs keep 18% of the land. Of course you have absolutely no right to keep any part of Cyprus excusively for yourselves, but in the end this seems to be the less bad solution.

[erolz]

A TC is a citizen of the country like a GC. The government many times takes decisions that are against my interests. Should I have a veto power too?

Your government may take decisions that affect you adversly as an indivdual, but how many times does it take decisions that are against the interests of your community of GC? You skip back and forth between the rights of individuals and communites, leaving confusion and lack of clarity in your wake, as it sevres you objective (a Cyprus under the effective domination and control of a single community without restraint - your community).

re rights and responsibilites. You have said clearly that in your opinion

Turkish Cypriots are equally responsible for 63-74.

So clearly according to your world view TC (as a community) can have equal responsibility (as the GC community) for the events of 63-74. Why then can we not have equal rights as a community? [/quote]

[Piratis]

So clearly according to your world view TC (as a community) can have equal responsibility (as the GC community) for the events of 63-74. Why then can we not have equal rights as a community?

1)where did I say "as a community"? I never said that, you said it.

TCs (as individuals) have equal responsibilities and equal rights. Thats what I said.

2) You confuse the use of word "responsibility". In one case is used to mean responsibilities to the state. In the other case it is used to mean "blame". I am sure you understand this, but you simply like to play with words.

but how many times does it take decisions that are against the interests of your community of GC?

How many times does it take decisions that are against the Armenians, the Maronites or the Latins? The government simply doesn't take decisions against any group of people.

If you want to see domination, go to Turkey and have a look at what the Turks do to the Kurds. What I propose has absolutely nothing to do with "domination". It seems to me that democracy = domination for you, but I am not going to give up democracy because it doesn't suit you.

[erolz]

1)where did I say "as a community"? I never said that, you said it.

So when you said "Turkish Cypriots are equally responsible for 63-74."

You meant TC indivduals are equally responsible as GC indivduals for 63-74?

2) You confuse the use of word "responsibility". In one case is used to mean responsibilities to the state. In the other case it is used to mean "blame". I am sure you understand this, but you simply like to play with words.

Actualy the usage and meaning are the same. You have a responsibility to do x, y or z and you are responsible for action x,y and z are not seperate meanings at all. You claim TC are equally responsible for 63-74 (your exact words). Is this a 'good thing' (for TC)? Of course not. So when it is a case of 'negative' labels TC can are 'equal' to GC. When it comes to 'good things' (like rights) TC can not possible have equality. This is the contradiction you live in.

How many times does it take decisions that are against the Armenians, the Maronites or the Latins? The government simply doesn't take decisions against any group of people.

What a ridiculous statement given the history of Cyprus. GC leaders deciding to use terrorism and force to achieve enosis in the 50s was not a decisions against the TC community? Deciding to try and remove agreed rights of the TC community in 63 (through legal and illegal means) was not a decision against TC? What a joke. Deciding to refuse to implement the agreements on municipalites AND ignoring the supreme courts ruling on this issue were not decisions against the TC community? The decisions of the solely GC administration. Deciding to behave towards the TC community as it did in the period 63-74 was not against the TC community? You may as well claim (as your president recently did) that no TC was ever killed by a GC in the period 63-74. Or that no GC administration would ever do anything in Cyprus against the wishes and interests of the TC community (oh - that is what you said!). Ridiculous. You live in a world of fantasy.

If you want to see domination, go to Turkey and have a look at what the Turks do to the Kurds.

Totaly irelevant to the discussion at hand.

What I propose has absolutely nothing to do with "domination". It seems to me that democracy = domination for you, but I am not going to give up democracy because it doesn't suit you.

Democracy can mean domination - this is a widely accepted and understood concept and philosophers through the ages have identified and recognise this weakness in democracy and the potential for a 'tyranny of democracy'. This is possible in ideal conditions. In conditions where minority and majority are defined on non changable ethnic lines and where there is a long history of oppression by the larger group against the weaker group and conflict and killing and murder and there is a denial of this oppression (historicaly and as a possibility in the future) by the larger group this danger of 'domination through democracy' is all the higher.

It is not democracy that you refuse to give up on. It is an insistance that a GC numerical majority will always be able to exert its will over an TC minority in Cyprus, without let or hinderance. There is nothing anti democratic about 'one community one vote' as a concept, just as this principal in every federal state that exists is not anti democratic. Or the EU is not anti democratic as an insititution. You do not want democracy, you want to use 'democracy' as a weapon to achieve your real aims. Of course you can not say I want the right for the GC community to be able to dominate the TC minority in Cyprus. So you say you want democracy instead. The effect however of your version of democracy is exactly the same as the domination (or the potential for domination if you prefer).

You had better wait for your change in the balance of power, for your colapse of Turkey and for a future where you can take back by force that which you lost by force and can achieve your maximal aims through the use of such force that you obviously yearn for, for with an attitude and mind set like yours no unity between GC and TC (which is the vital pre stage to building a single Cypriot people) can exist. I sincerely hope that your views are a minority and declining view amongst GC but fear that they are not.

[Alexandros Lordos]

Erol,

don't lose faith my friend ...

People like Piratis hold their views in all sincerity, and out of a genuine concern for Cyprus, but they are indeed a minority amongst Greek Cypriots ...

However, because they feel very strongly about this issue (political equality, rights of TCs etc.), they tend to be more vocal than everyone else, and therefore they seem to be a majority.

The real majority (the silent majority, I like to call it) is willing to accept a settlement based on Bizonality and Political Equality of the two communities, so long as it is more secure - and more fair to refugees - than the Annan Plan proposal.