Cyprus-Forum.com

[magikthrill]

I'm sorry but are you guys in denial or just comletely uninformed?

Last time I checked it's Turkey that's occupying Cyprus, not Greece. Greece doesn't care about controlling Cyprus my friends, whether you like to admit this or not. Were you also unaware of the fact that our current PM paid more visits to Turkey than he has to Cyprus since he began his term in office?

It's interesting how even though its Turkey that's illegally occupying CYprus, supporters of the pseudo-state still try to come on top as the defenseless creatures. Everybody's had their fair share of blood in Cyprus. Right now though it's only Turkey.

In Greece there's a saying
"God loves the thief but also loves the homeowner" (loosely translated). Or at least I think that's how it goes.

[efe]

The reason for Turkey to invade norther part of cyprus was because of a Greece inspired movement of uniting the island with Greece. Yes you havent done anything theoratically. If Turkey really really wanted to occupy Cyprus and make you guys suffer, why didint she go all the way? Why not the whole island?

[erolz]

Last time I checked it's Turkey that's occupying Cyprus, not Greece.

How observant of you.

Greece doesn't care about controlling Cyprus my friends, whether you like to admit this or not.

Maybe so but whether you like to admit it or not, many GC still care about GC as a group having a sole right to control Cyprus, without any let or hinderance or need to have consideration for the wishes of the TC community in Cyprus.

Were you also unaware of the fact that our current PM paid more visits to Turkey than he has to Cyprus since he began his term in office?

Keep your friends close and your enemies even closer.

It's interesting how even though its Turkey that's illegally occupying CYprus, supporters of the pseudo-state still try to come on top as the defenseless creatures.

The TC community in Cyprus do feel a need to remind the world that until the Turkish action in 74 they were essentially defensless creatures at the mercy of a GC numerical majority in their own homeland. Or do you deny this?

Everybody's had their fair share of blood in Cyprus. Right now though it's only Turkey.

I still find this aspect 'revealing'. You are more than happy to talk about an equality of blood (and suffering and blame etc) yet talk of 'political eqaulity' would still seem to be an anethma to you. If TC as a community are an enetity that can carry equal blame and responsibility for the tradgeies of Cyprus today then surely they are also capable of having political equality as well?

Do you accept the reality that if you had what you wanted in 1960 the RoC would not exist today? That all Cypriots would today be a political minority within Greece. That it was the TC desire for some degree of political equality in Cyprus and willingness to fight both politicaly and miltarily that secured the survivial of an independent Cyprus. The fact is that Cyprus (even divided) today only exists because of the TC community. One could argue that you should be thanking the TC community and offering full political equality to them in gratitude - not still insisting that the very thing that has ensured your survival as a state should not be granted to them. If you had done that before 74 then events would have been very different that they are today.

[magikthrill]

How observant of you.

Why thank you.

Maybe so but whether you like to admit it or not, many GC still care about GC as a group having a sole right to control Cyprus, without any let or hinderance or need to have consideration for the wishes of the TC community in Cyprus.

Well TCs, who are a minority, think that they can control their own part of the island. And this is an illegal action that is occurring not just a feeling they have.

Keep your friends close and your enemies even closer.

Good thinking man. It's that kind of backwards thinking that will help solve the Cyprus problem.

The TC community in Cyprus do feel a need to remind the world that until the Turkish action in 74 they were essentially defensless creatures at the mercy of a GC numerical majority in their own homeland. Or do you deny this?

Defenseless creatures?!? With Turkey just miles away they were most definitely not defenseless creatures. Stop trying to act like the sole victims here. I don't want to get into the whole legal and illegal thing again cause we both udnerstand the difference between the two. Cyprus -> legal, northern cyprus -> illegal

I still find this aspect 'revealing'. You are more than happy to talk about an equality of blood (and suffering and blame etc) yet talk of 'political eqaulity' would still seem to be an anethma to you. If TC as a community are an enetity that can carry equal blame and responsibility for the tradgeies of Cyprus today then surely they are also capable of having political equality as well?

I'm sorry if I find it hard to find any logical connotations in your remark. But do you think it's fair for 18% of people to have 50% of the power?

Do you accept the reality that if you had what you wanted in 1960 the RoC would not exist today? That all Cypriots would today be a political minority within Greece. That it was the TC desire for some degree of political equality in Cyprus and willingness to fight both politicaly and miltarily that secured the survivial of an independent Cyprus. The fact is that Cyprus (even divided) today only exists because of the TC community. One could argue that you should be thanking the TC community and offering full political equality to them in gratitude - not still insisting that the very thing that has ensured your survival as a state should not be granted to them. If you had done that before 74 then events would have been very different that they are today.

First of all, if Cyprus had been annexed to Greece (as the majority of the island wanted) then CYpriots would be no more of a minority then those who live in Crete or the Ionian Islands or the Aegean islands. Every part of Greece has its own specific customs.

Secondly, do you deny the fact that if the TCs were the majority in Cyprus then Cyprus would be nothing but a Turkish island and the GC minority would have left a long time ago like the Greeks in Asia Minor????

Please don't try and be self-righteous with me. If it wasn't for the TC community Cyprus would have been a part of Greece because that's what the people of the island wanted.

[erolz]

Why thank you.

You are welcome.

Well TCs, who are a minority, think that they can control their own part of the island. And this is an illegal action that is occurring not just a feeling they have.

Yes we think that if you refuse to share the Island with us and accept some degree of equality with us as a community in our shared homeland there is little other option but for us to run our part of the Island and you to run yours.

Good thinking man. It's that kind of backwards thinking that will help solve the Cyprus problem.

It is not my thinking, it was a quote from Sun Tzu 'the art of war' (though there seems to be some dispute over this - try a google on the phrase for more). I used it to counter what I assumed was the 'point' of your statement re your current PM's visits to Turkey. It seemed to me that you were using this of evidence of his position as 'not an enemy of Turkey / Turkish interests'. I used this common quote to indicate that such frequent visits are no such indication.

Defenseless creatures?!? With Turkey just miles away they were most definitely not defenseless creatures.

For the period from 63 till 74 when Turkey finally came to our aid (and was finally allowed to come to our aid) we were defenseless creatures. How GC behavied in that period was a major factor in determining what happened after.

Stop trying to act like the sole victims here.

I am not acting like the sole victims (or suggesting that TC were sole victims either before or after 74). I am trying to point out that Turkey is not the sole cause or the sole problem thats all.

I don't want to get into the whole legal and illegal thing again cause we both udnerstand the difference between the two. Cyprus -> legal, northern cyprus -> illegal

OK then I will not get 'into' how the UN is not the determinator of internationa law. Or how international law is a vague and fuzzy concept at the best of times. Or that a states legitamcy is not dependent solely on recognition from other states.

I'm sorry if I find it hard to find any logical connotations in your remark. But do you think it's fair for 18% of people to have 50% of the power?

I think its fair for one community to have equality with another community, just as I do not think it is unfair for a small 4 foot, 6 stone 18 year individual to have equality with a 7 foot 32 stone 55 year old, or for a small state to have equality with a alrger state in a union of states.

First of all, if Cyprus had been annexed to Greece (as the majority of the island wanted) then CYpriots would be no more of a minority then those who live in Crete or the Ionian Islands or the Aegean islands. Every part of Greece has its own specific customs.

Today GC have an idependent state. Presumably they today wish to maintain this independance and self governance. That they are able to do so today is because of the TC. Without them you would not have these things. Still no need for thanks really.

Secondly, do you deny the fact that if the TCs were the majority in Cyprus then Cyprus would be nothing but a Turkish island and the GC minority would have left a long time ago like the Greeks in Asia Minor????

I do not know what would have happened in such circumstances. I would like to believe that such a hypothetical TC majority would not have behaved with the same degree of miscalculation, insincerity, disrespect for Cypriot lives or human rights or the rule of law as the GC did in the period 60-74. I would like to beleieve that but have no real basis for insisting it would have been the case.

Please don't try and be self-righteous with me. If it wasn't for the TC community Cyprus would have been a part of Greece because that's what the people of the island wanted.

I am not being self rightgeous. Union with Greece may have been what the GC people wanted then. It's not what they want now. The TC community then saved GC from themselves in this respect but like I say I do not really expect any gratitude from you for this.

[magikthrill]

I won't quote you on everything you say because that just leads to long posts so ill sum up what i have to say.

first of all you didn't answer my question. I didn't ask for comparisons I asked you
Is it fair for 18% of the people to share 50% of the power? It's a simple yes or no question. It doesn't need to be applied to Cyprus. Use it for Turkey and the Kurdish community if you want.

Also, I said that the majority of Cypriots (not GCs) wanted union with Greece. Simple maths:
GCs ~ 80% of Cyprus
GCs who wanted union with Greece ~ 90% of Cyprus
therefore 0.8 * 0.9 = .72, ie 72% of Cyprus wanted union with Greece.

Finally, I don't see why I should be thanking you? If the majority of CYprus wanted union with Greece, why would it have been wrong for them to unite? So if you want me to thank you, or the TC community, for infringing the democratic rights (ie majority rules) of a Republic, then, yes thank you very much. Of course I'm not Cypriot so my sincere thanks are simply null and void.

[erolz]

first of all you didn't answer my question. I didn't ask for comparisons I asked you
Is it fair for 18% of the people to share 50% of the power? It's a simple yes or no question. It doesn't need to be applied to Cyprus. Use it for Turkey and the Kurdish community if you want.

In certain circumstances yes I do think it's fair. If the 18% are for example 'left handed' people then no they should not have political equality with the 'right handers'. I say this on the assumption that the 'left handers' do not have a different language or culture or religion to the right handers and that their wishes are not diametricaly opposed to right handers on fundamental issues. If these assumptions are not true then I would have to revise my view. I have reapeatedly made my view clear, as you must be aware. In the case of the TC in Cyprus (or the Kurds in Turkey) I believe that as a 'community' or 'people' or 'group' (whichever terminology you prefer) that yes it is fair for them to have a _degree_ of autonomy and self determination and eqaulity with other such groups in a shared homeland. So the answer is yes I do think it is not just fair, but also necessary if peace is to be acheived.

Also, I said that the majority of Cypriots (not GCs) wanted union with Greece. Simple maths:
GCs ~ 80% of Cyprus
GCs who wanted union with Greece ~ 90% of Cyprus
therefore 0.8 * 0.9 = .72, ie 72% of Cyprus wanted union with Greece.

and one community did not want union with greece and one community did. IE as communites 50% wanted it and 50% did not. I no more accept that the GC as a community should be able to dictate such a fundamantal issue in their own homeland than I accept that a 'bigger / heavier / older' persons wishes should automaticaly have priority over a 'smaller / lighter / younger' persons wishes should they be diametricaly opposed.

Finally, I don't see why I should be thanking you?

No obviously you do not. However if you placed any value on the RoC existing today as an independent state then you would see why you owe that existance to the TC.

[Alexandros Lordos]

He he, I like the way MicAtCyp's comment ignited the conversation

Look people, though I always want to consider myself a positive and optimistic person, I think MicAtCyp has a point here ...

The problem with further negotiations (whether short or extended) is that they will always stumble on Turkey's insistence to retain strategic control of Cyprus. And this, despite the willingness of Greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots to acknowledge their errors, put the past behind them, and reach a compromise.

Whether we like it or not, Turkey is the third player in the Cyprus Problem, alongside GCs and TCs ...

When I was presenting my study to various ambassadors, some of them openly admitted that Turkey's outdated strategic doctrine has always been impeding a solution ... one diplomat told me that everything which my study recommends is feasible, except getting rid of the treaty of guarantee. (In other words, Turkey would never consent)

I wouldn't say that Turkey has to disappear from the map in order to get the problem solved, but I think it is true that Turkey has to change, become more European, and less obsessed with pseudo-security concerns.

[insan]

Whether we like it or not, Turkey is the third player in the Cyprus Problem, alongside GCs and TCs ...

And whether we like it or not, Greece who led Cyprus to join EU also is a player of this game in disguise ... We know why Greece led Cyprus to join EU and why EU let Cyprus in... but according to Alexandros, these are pseudo-security concerns of Turkey; just because a few diplomats said that.... What else?

[Alexandros Lordos]

Greece led Cyprus into the EU in order to force Turkey into solving the Cyprus Problem. Everyone admits that. In that sense, yes, Greece is a fourth player, but not in the same way that Turkey is a player. Greece doesn't attempt to exert strategic control of Cyprus, though it certainly did in the past ...

This was evident in Burgenstock last April, when Turkey came to the discussions with a list of demands - most of them pertaining to Turkey's needs rather than Turkish Cypriot needs - whereas Greece came to Burgenstock empty handed, saying in effect "We respect the views of the GCs". Why do you think it was Denktash who insisted that "the motherlands" be brought into the negotiations? So that Turkey would have a chance to put forward its own demands - Denktash knew in advance that Greece would not ask for anything in particular ...

The era in which Greece meddled into the internal affairs of Cyprus ended suddenly in 1974 - with the collapse of the Junta and everything they stood for. Since then, Greece has been trying to find a new direction and a new identity, by joining the EU and becoming a modern democratic nation.

My concern about Turkey is that, while it is certainly a nation in transition, the army still exerts a disproportionate level of influence in Turkish politics. Hence, the pseudo-security concern that, somehow, a Cyprus which is not under the direct control of Turkey is a potential strategic threat to Turkey, just because it happens to be close-by ... (even if it is a perfectly peaceful and stable European Country).

Insan, if you think Turkey's security concerns over Cyprus are real, please enlighten me - I am open to hear a different view point. But until I hear something that will change my mind, I can't help but think that a handful of old and rigid-minded Generals are making decisions that affect the rest of us, in a way not very different to what the Greek Junta was doing before 1974.