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[cypezokyli]

ok, now i dontt want to start my optimitic dreams on who could support it...but i am still confident.

besides, who said it will be a non-paying private school?
fees may well be an option

[Eric dayi]

ok, now i dontt want to start my optimitic dreams on who could support it...but i am still confident.

besides, who said it will be a non-paying private school?
fees may well be an option

Then it will be only for those who can afford it. I don't think that is the concept of this idea. It should and must be available for all, not just the rich.

A good German friend of mine says; “Um die Antworten zu jedem möglichem Problem zu haben das entstehen könnte, muß eine neue Idee mehr kritisiert als gepriesen werden.”

Translation: To have the answers to any problem that could arise, a new idea must be more criticised than praised.

But, he hates criticism.

[cypezokyli]

since oyu mentioned germany. in germany some alternative schools follow the following rule. parents pay a specific amount if the family income is over a specific value. (eg more than 30000€ per year you pay 3000€). in case the family income is less than that then each family pays a proportion of its family income (eg 10%).

so thats a possible way of avoiding elitisism of the school.
and that is if the two communities decide not to finance it themselves, or no other sponsor is found. fees its not the purpose. its an alternative. between no such (public) school, and an existing private one i would go for the second choise.

there is a solution to each problem eric dayi.its not an easy process though.
the question is whether one wants to find a solution.

[Eric dayi]

since oyu mentioned germany. in germany some alternative schools follow the following rule. parents pay a specific amount if the family income is over a specific value. (eg more than 30000€ per year you pay 3000€). in case the family income is less than that then each family pays a proportion of its family income (eg 10%).

Yep, true, that's why in Germany's private schools every parent earns only 29,999 Euros.

so thats a possible way of avoiding elitisism of the school.
and that is if the two communities decide not to finance it themselves, or no other sponsor is found. fees its not the purpose. its an alternative. between no such (public) school, and an existing private one i would go for the second choise.

there is a solution to each problem eric dayi.its not an easy process though.
the question is whether one wants to find a solution.

For a solution to be found all concerned must agree but if they all did then why would there be a need for a solution at all.

Another question for you, what if a family has more than one child and wants to give each child the same opportunity, how would they afford it? That is of course as you say above if the two communities decide not to finance the school or no other sponsor is found.

As I tried to make clear in my last posting, any new idea has to be looked at from all angles and criticised from the begining to see if it's worth putting on the table in the first place.

Sometimes it pays to be a pessimist rather than an optimist.

[cypezokyli]

Waldorfschulen stehen grundsätzlich allen Kindern offen - unabhängig von Religion, Hautfarbe, Geschlecht und Einkommen der Eltern.

Es ist ein Prinzip der Waldorfschule, kein Kind aus finanziellen Gründen abzulehnen.

waldorf schools are opened to all kids independent from religion, colour, sex , and income of the parents
it is a principle of the waldorfschools that no child is denied for financial reasons

you already posted sth in german eric so i take it you can understand and visit the website
http://www.waldorfschule-hd.org/

[Eric dayi]

cypezokyli, after living in Osnabrueck, Germany for over 20 years there are a lot of things I can say about German schools, most good but also bad things but I do not want to go into that right now. One thing I must say though is that you cannot compare a school in Germany with a school that Mills is suggesting for Cyprus. The main reason (but not only) being that there is no longer a divided Germany. No Green Line and no two completely different people whereby one is trying to be the dominant power and to control the whole country thereby claiming the whole island as a Greek island and the other one as a mere minority. It is not the same feeling that the “ossies” and “wessies” have for each other.

I have heard of but never had anything to do with Waldorschulen. Everything looks good on paper or on a website but how good or bad the Waldorfschulen are in reality I obviously cannot comment on. All I can talk about is the problems my kids had in normal schools even though their mother is German.

Hat dein name "cypezokyli" eine bedeutung?

[Mills Chapman]

Thank you all for your posts. I am sorry for the delay in responding. Here are my responses to some of Zan’s questions, and tomorrow I will try to do the rest as well as those of Eric dayi and Cypezokyli.

Zan: What will the rest of the children be learning outside this school that these selected few will have to go home and play with?

Mills: The Nicosia children not attending this school would be learning whatever subjects their respective school authorities see as appropriate (such as in the state schools). I admit that there might be some awkwardness between the children – those attending the Share-a-Square (S-A-S) school versus those not, but I don’t think this awkwardness would be that detrimental, chiefly because most of their playmates will probably be their schoolmates. That’s how it was for me when I was a child. Yes, they might have some playmates who don’t go to their school, but if some of these playmates give them a hard time because of their special school, then chances are good that these playmates would give them problems regardless of where they go to school. They might bully them about their football skills, weak muscles, etc. Also, I would like to think that at such a young age these children will be monitored during playtime by an adult.

Zan: The first and foremost criteria that any parent will look into when picking a school is, “Will it get my child into a good job?”

Mills: Yes, parents may think, “Will it get my child a good job,” but upon further reasoning, they would probably think, “Will it get my child into a good university?” Most good jobs anywhere require a university degree, so the way to work out this problem is to send the S-A-S developers to the top universities that Cypriots want to send their children to (Oxford, Cambridge, Harvard, Princeton, Heidelberg, Sorbonne, Salamanca, etc.) and ask the admissions officers at these institutions what the ideal candidate would look like to them – in terms of academics, arts, exam scores, athletics, community service, etc. (See another section in this thread on how this would be funded.) If the mission of the S-A-S school is shared with these universities, I would predict that they would grant us the time and would give us the ideal attributes that they want in a university candidate. It is not too much to think, given the mission of the school, that each of these universities might grant fully-funded university scholarships and reserve admission spaces for a couple of the school’s top students. That would certainly get the prospective parents’ attention. Additional ideals could be solicited from the prospective parents themselves in a wide survey before the school is built.

The next step is to consult with educational psychologists and researchers. Give them the list of desired outcomes/attributes mentioned by the universities, such as “Can write outstanding essays on the causes of World War II” and have them map out the teaching methods and practices that the teachers of the school need to use to get there. The educational authorities on each side would also submit suggestions.

Zan: The school will have no history of success and pedigree...The old school tie is still very important and in my experience getting more so.

Mills: Yes, I agree that the old-school tie is important, both in Cyprus and elsewhere. (I myself have benefited from it here in the U.S.). That’s why I suggested that, if it is okay with the Turkish Cypriots and with The Junior School/English School administrations on the ROC-controlled side, those schools could serve as the landsite for this proposed school. The administration and teachers would stay in their jobs, and so would the students, except for the incoming class at the lowest level each year; eventually, after 12 years or so, all the classes will have been admitted under the S-A-S model. Whereas the families of the current students are paying, the schooling of those in the lower grades would be funded by the S-A-S approach (and with a different curriculum and teaching methods too). However, this might create unwanted tension between the existing students and the incoming students who will slowly be representing all of the years in the school. The Turkish Cypriot children in particular might feel this tension, and thus it might be too difficult to weave a new curriculum, operating system, and enrollment system into an existing school, such as The English School.

So, we are back to your question about the old school tie. Yes, a brand-new school might not have the track record and the rich alumni network of a school such as The English School, so to offset these weaknesses, it will simply have to be designed and built to be the best school in the Nicosia area. It’s not just a matter of a “dream team of teachers,” but a “dream team of a school,” – teachers, a strong curriculum that was suggested by the elite universities, a beautiful physical plant (piece of property), etc. This does sound terribly idealistic, but do see my section on funding and how it would be raised (that makes all the difference in gauging the feasibility of creating such a “dream school.”

Another way to offset The English School’s alumni network – somewhat – is to conduct a massive publicity/awareness campaign in both communities and among Cypriots abroad, a campaign that discusses what the S-A-S school’s purpose is and how it will give back to the communities (students from each side periodically going to state schools in their own community to talk about going to school with students from the other side and learning history together). Arrangements could also be made with The English School to give the graduates of this school access to The English School’s alumni database – sort of like how airlines code-share flights – and vice versa. If worse comes to worse, the benefactors of the S-A-S school could build something for The English School’s physical plant to get them to help out here (like a new swimming pool – whatever is needed). Perhaps prominent graduates of The English School – such as Clerides and Denktash – could be brought in to encourage their fellow alumni to help out the alumni of the S-A-S school in later years.
Zan: When your school is initially set up, you will rely on parents to give their children as sacrificial lambs with only possible peace and reunification of Cyprus as their aim.

Mills: The primary aim will be to make the best school in Nicosia (pre-primary, primary, and secondary), period. The parents’ aim will be to give the best education to their children, and the school’s aim will be to draw in families regardless of their economic situation. This can be done if the product is the best one on the shelf. Yes, another aim of the school might be peace and reunification, but this school won’t have any effect in facilitating that if it is not the best one academically for prospective parents.

Zan: Maybe a possible “dream team” of teachers could be rounded up and a highly equipped school could make a difference but have you seen how much equipment (i.e.; computers, computer screen black boards, projectors etc,) a modern school has these days?

Mills: I haven’t seen a school in Cyprus (though lots in the U.S.), but the idea is to think what a “dream school” would look like with an extremely generous budget. What things are missing at The English School that could make it even more outstanding or desirable? Is there a cutting-edge laptop for every student? Is there wireless Internet in each room? Is there a library on campus of educational DVDs (and any other DVDs for that matter) for the students to take home? What about class-size ratios? How about special learning aides for struggling students? How about high-profile visitors from abroad (Bono, Nobel Peace Prize winners, perhaps?)? (These are rhetorical questions.) Basically, what is required to design a school that is outstanding on every level? Funding makes a huge difference (I do discuss funding in my paper, but I will discuss it again on the thread – be patient please; I might get to it tomorrow).

Zan: I have no doubt that the schools in Cyprus will not be as well equipped as the ones abroad but this is what you have to compete against if you are to get the more affluent 50% of your school filled. The other 50% of the school will at first be filled with the poorer every day child whose parents might buy into the idea that you are proposing.

Mills: The school will not aim to be 50% affluent and 50% poor, if that is what you have in mind. The students could be wealthy or poor – it depends on their family member’s employment position in the corresponding “government” or on their luck in the lottery (not a “position” meaning an opinion or point-of-view. I’m not talking about that type of a “position.” I’m talking about the family member’s job in “government.”)

Zan: But it will soon be filled with people who just want to get a good education for their children regardless of what their political views are.

Mills: The school won’t care about the prospective families’ political views – pro or con. The key is to systematically attract the families of the most politically influential two-year-olds each year and keep doing so. If you keep that up for four decades, then all of a sudden you have two or three generations of politically connected adults in Nicosia (maybe not working for the government necessarily) who have attended school together and who are proud of that experience, of working together in the history classroom, and in math class, etc. – adults who will probably identify more with Cypriots of the other Cypriot community than with people of their own ethnicity in Mainland Greece or Mainland Turkey.

Zan: The rest of the programming will be done at home with tradition and crowd think.

Mills: You should check out the concept of cognitive dissonance, one of the goals of this school. When a person has two thoughts in their mind that are opposite, the person becomes stressed/anxious and does something to alleviate the tension. I discuss this in the paper. Eventually, parents will see that their programming is counter-productive to what the child is being exposed to at school (that children from the other community are normal, etc.), and that the less they do this counter-productive action, the less stressed their child will be and the better he or she will be able to perform in school, particularly in the cooperative-learning groups in their classes with students of the other community.

Zan: We on the other hand can barely afford the school fees we pay for my two sons but my eldest son has proved himself to be exceptionally bright and has lovingly forced our hand into providing the best education we can afford for him. My other son finds it a little bit more difficult, but is not doing too bad. Their first school was as you say a lottery as in first come first serve basis. (Mills underlined this.)

Mills: That doesn’t sound like a lottery to me unless those who won in the lottery were offered a space in the school before anyone else, even those who expressed interest before the lottery-winners did. “First come, first serve” implies that the first families to show interest will be the first families to have a child admitted. That will not be the case with this proposed school. If those who win a space in the lottery don’t want to send their child to the school, then there will be another drawing of the lottery, regardless of how many families are pounding on the front door to get in.

More tomorrow. Stay tuned.

[Mills Chapman]

Eric dayi: What happens if a “Chosen” family has more than 1 child, would this not cause a siblings war of jealousy? As long as the children are quite young I don’t see a problem but when they get older and realise their siblings have been given the opportunity to get better jobs and even run the country that’s when the real war between siblings will start.

Mills: This is a good question, but it is not as if the family itself is spending a lot of money to send the first child to the good school. In situations where the family pays for an elite school for one child and sends the other to a state school, then yes, a sibling war of jealousy probably would arise. But here, it is as if the family won an entry spot in the S-A-S school for one of the children without expending a big effort. Getting into the S-A-S school will require a certain amount of luck – either by lottery or being labeled as one of the most politically influential two-year-olds for that year (based on the family member’s job in government and the distance on the family tree between the child and that family member). Luck plays a large part, and this would have to be made clear to the other siblings; I don’t want to be naïve, but I think this would mitigate a lot of the jealousy. The siblings should also be grateful that a brother or sister got into this school because this will enable their parents to spend more of their educational budget on extra lessons for the siblings attending the state schools.

This school won’t determine who will run the country down the road; it is more of a plan to maximize the possibility that those who do end up running the country will have attended this school – a small but crucial difference. Also, I presume that networking is the name of the game for job seekers in Cyprus as it is in the U.S. If the first child gets into a good job, he/she can network and use contacts for the others – same with politics.

Eric dayi: Another problem that I see arising is, as mentioned above if a “chosen” family has more than 1 child (for arguments sake I’ll say 3) and 1 is chosen to go this school. This one child will learn (or should) all the things he is supposed to learn in the school including getting on with the “other side”. Ok, now you have 1 child who learns to accept and live together with the opposite sides child and you have two that get the normal education from a normal school and from their parents. What will happen at home? Which of the siblings will be able to educate the other/s and win?

Mills: I don’t think this will be that much of a problem, and I’ll explain why (my answer might seem a bit convoluted though). The different schools where these siblings will be attending will have a key difference between them: At the regular state school (or homogenously ethnic private school) where the other siblings might go, those students won’t have to sub-consciously maintain a negative attitude toward the other Cypriot community in order to do well in class. (This is where cooperative learning and cognitive dissonance comes in >>>.) In the S-A-S school, the students would spend a good percentage of their lessons (maybe 35%) in learning groups (3-4 people) with classmates of the other ethnicity. This will happen on a daily basis, and to do well in class, one will have to be productive and effective in one’s learning group, and to do that, it helps to think positively of the others in the learning group and to encourage them when they are feeling down. (Please see my paper about cooperative learning; there is a lot of good educational research describing not only its socio-emotional benefits but also cognitive benefits that lead to higher test scores.)

If the S-A-S child is going to have to do well in his or her learning group and thus hold a positive attitude toward them, the parents would be ill-advised to try to instill a lot of hate in not only this child, but also the other children in the family. Think about it: If a child constantly hears from one of his siblings that “those people” are bad and then has to cooperate with those students at school, he/she will experience cognitive dissonance (two opposite thoughts at once; this causes tension and stress in the mind). Stress weakens academic achievement, and thus the child’s ability to do well in school is weakened. If the child hears a cohesive message from not only the school and the parents but also the siblings, then the child’s chances to do well at school are that much greater (because of less stress and less cognitive dissonance). The parents, being made aware of this in advance by the school authorities, would be wise then to do their best to prevent the other siblings from having such negative thoughts that these siblings try to indoctrinate the child. The point that should be made to these families (parents and children) is that while it is of political value to hate the murderers from the 1970s and also the other side’s politicians at the moment, there is no value in hating young students on the other side – they are just as innocent as you are.

Also while this will not make a perfect inoculation for the family, the parents and the S-A-S child will receive training in conflict-resolution education (CRE) (See ECSEL and TSP in my paper.) The parents will have the option to decline the training, but if they agree to it, they would do so in a homogeneously ethnic class – the training here is not about resolving conflicts between the two Cypriot communities but between individuals, whether they be in the classroom or in the household. When the parents become trained in how to help their children be more emotionally competent, they will want their children to learn how to resolve their conflicts between them (between the siblings), such as by criticizing the points but not the person, etc.

(Let me know if this answer is not clear enough. A lot of what I am saying here might sound like hogwash (or b.s.), but I can refer you to solid educational and psychological research on conflict-resolution education (and how it helps regular academics), cognitive dissonance, and cooperative learning.)

Eric dayi: This is just in the family but what about when that child goes out to play or goes to a night club.

Mills: Yes, the child will be vulnerable, but during his or her early years, there will probably be an accompanying adult to most places. In the teenage years, the student will have to use street smarts, knowing how to smell a dangerous situation before entering it. It’s not fail-proof, but mind you, the child is not politically recognizing the other side, he or she is simply going to school with someone from that community. Also, it wasn’t the child’s decision to attend the school, and if a thug were to hold that against the child, then chances are strong that the thug is harassing people in general and needs to be put in prison.

Eric dayi: What about the parents, how would they be seen and treated by the rest of their own communities?

Mills: Yes, the parents will have to be brave, but they should be comforted by the fact that most other parents in the city would go for it if given a chance, if indeed the school is built to be better and cheaper than any other schooling option. I postulate that most parents would privately say that doing the best thing for their child comes before doing what nationalists think is the best thing for one’s country (which may not be the best thing in the long run anyway). Most folks in the two communities today would probably agree to the idea that resealing the Green Line would be a bad move. The next courageous step is to put their kids together in a classroom where one side’s students are not in the minority. Some people in the community might be angry, but I bet that there would be a lot of folks who would also be supportive. It’s not as if these parents are agreeing to a political deal, just to sending their kids to an integrated, equal-status school. (Equal-status here means equal social status between the students, not equal political status).

Eric dayi: As far as I can see there’s only two possible scenarios where this sort of school stands a chance of succeeding but both are impossible. 1) To move all the families into a newly built town/city and cut off any contact with the outside world until all the older generation has passed away and the new generation hasn’t killed each other of boredom. 2) Move all the “chosen” families to a foreign country where they will be free of influence from their own communities. …Maybe it should be tried out in a country that is not divided by war, the USA would be a good place to experiment. If it works there, it’ll work anywhere.

Mills: For #1. The idea is to have half of the students be from families where there is someone working for the government, so if they built a new city, they would also have to build a new capital, and I don’t think that is going to happen. These people need to keep their community ties strong. For #2, the objective of this school that is going to draw in the funding from the international community is the objective of enhancing inter-communal relations enough to spark a creative political settlement. Though it has its own problems, the U.S. is not in need of a political settlement/treaty. If this were the 1850s (shortly before the U.S. Civil War), then maybe the U.S. would be a good place to experiment. Nicosia is the only metropolis in the world that has two self-described national governments within it. A similar school might be built someday in Jerusalem, Panmunjom (Korea), Wagah (India/Pakistan border), Belfast, Batugade (on the border between East and West Timor), and on the Ethiopian/ Eritrean border, but the current conditions in Cyprus would be more appealing to donors than these places.

Cypezokyli: “…moreoever a parent who does not believe that the two sides can live together he will simply not send his child in such a school

Mills: How much better – including security - would this school have to be than the English School or another option in order to convince the parent to send his or her child here? We are not talking about asking the parents to agree to a political settlement but to just send their child to an integrated school. Won’t each parent reach a point where they would be convinced (assuming a far superior quality in the school)? It is my suspicion that GC parents will be more reluctant to send their children to this school than TC parents will, even if it is fully on ROC-controlled land. If the ROC is trying to assure the TCs that they will be safe without the Turkish military presence, wouldn’t it be to the hardened GCs’ advantage to send their children to such an integrated school and to show the TCs that nothing dangerous will happen to their children?

Cypezoklyi: “…it doesn’t mean that there are going to be "coming together classes" till the last grade which would hinder the education of other important subjects necessary to get a job.

Mills: By “coming together” classes, do you mean integrated classes for history, math, literature, and the other regular subjects, or do you mean the CRE class (conflict-resolution education), which would probably only require 30 minutes per week, on average? CRE has a lot to do with interpersonal skills – resolving disputes, negotiating, etc., and if you ask a lot of executives, they will tell you that having strong interpersonal skills is a big determinant in career success (knowing how to get along with a diverse group, etc.)

Zan: “…In the, me, me, me world of today it is tall order to ask for you to give up your child’s future to a lottery.”

Mills: If a family won a space in the lottery, they would have a chance to turn down the offer. I’m not suggesting that the family would be forced to send their child to the school. (I think you understand that; I am just clarifying.)

Zan: “…Their grand father built the school a brand new theatre to bribe his way in.”

Mills: The school won’t need any billionaire’s money unless he or she wants to donate it with no strings attached. The money will come from abroad (I will explain how eventually – sorry, I’m just answering other questions first.).

Zan: There will always be a danger that the parents will lie about their beliefs in order to get their child into the school.

Mills: Beliefs will have nothing to do with admission to school – either the family member’s position (i.e., job) on the hierarchy of that side’s government – or public lottery; not “position” as in their “opinion” or belief” – position as in their employment (my position in the company is Manager, etc.).

More answers tomorrow.

[cypezokyli]

just a quick response

It is my suspicion that GC parents will be more reluctant to send their children to this school than TC parents will, even if it is fully on ROC-controlled land

if thats your suspision mills, thats my fear
in this respect thank god we are more

[Mills Chapman]

just a quick response

It is my suspicion that GC parents will be more reluctant to send their children to this school than TC parents will, even if it is fully on ROC-controlled land

if thats your suspision mills, thats my fear
in this respect thank god we are more

Cypezokyli, I 'm not sure how to interpret this. Help me out if you can. I don't know if you are afraid of what I am proposing - as if I might have a secret agenda against GCs- or if you are sympathizing with me, like agreeing with me but cautioning that it is going to take a long time.

In the meantime, I am going to work on the rest of my responses to the recent questions that were asked.