Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kifeas]

Greece after 1974 did a self-criticism and put in jail EOKA B's scums and terrorists and anyone who got involved in the coup and rios. Maybe it is time for cyprus to have a self-criticism. now, with the newest scandal in the army, it is time to see how governs cyprus and send them home.

You mean Greece put the 21st of April Junta scums in jail, becasue the Eoka B' was a Cypriot thing. Cyprus also put Sampson, the junta appointed Eoka B president in jail too, for this purpose.

[EUropean666]

Ioannidis was jailed for the cypriot coup and several other military personnel. turkey did not bother to prosecute anyone.

[Pyrpolizer]

anti-nationalist,

I am not surprised of what you said. After 1974 the TCs created their own myths of what the GCs are. The same is true for the GCs, i.e they created their own myths of what the TCs are. You were surprised to learn how the GCs respect the Eoka heros of 1955-59 liberation struggle. We were also surprised to learn how you view your TMT "resistance fighters" .99% of GCs get shocked hearing the TCs claiming the 1974 invasion was a "peace operation". For me these are not problems. What is important is for both GCs and TCs to come to a position of understanding each other. This means to understand why the other community feels like that regardless of whether we like it or not. I am proud to say I personally am in this position. If you watch my posts in here many TCs will think I am a GC extremist. Yet when I speak to GCs and tell them "do you know that before 1974 the TCs suffered this and that" the GCs call me a Turko-philo (= a bysider to the Turks). I don’t care….

After a solution the Eoka 1955-59 books will be translated to Turkish, the same for your TC struggle. After we all read these you may come back and tell me if the young Eoka fighters were by 99% real idealist heros or not. I will also come back and tell you the same things about your own heros.

As for your comments that the GCs think the island should be a hellenic island and they would go straight ahead for Enosis if given the chance I say you are wrong. This is another myth you have to clarify. The GCs are ready to accept a Federal solution, and they will support it only if it is fair and gives them back their properties. They are also ready to accept sharing of power as per Federal system. One of the myths the Tcs have is that a Federal system means 50-50 power sharing on everything. It does not. Many GCs don’t even know that A federal system means we will have to share power with the TCs. So you met 1000 ignorant GCs you mixed your own ignorance (no offense meant) for a 50-50 power sharing and you drew wrong conclussions. Its about time we all realise the truth and the kind of solution that is expecting us, understand the other sides true intentions and stop acting on the basis of myths and wrong conclussions

Your act of writting on walls in 1975 was indeed brave and I congratulate you for that. One day you will realise you were doing the right thing, regardless of the myths you had in your mind about the reasons of doing so.

The borders opened just 2 years ago. It is obvious imo that there is too much ignorance on both sides both about the kind of solution that could be accepted, as well as for the expectations of each side and how these expactations contradict with what has already been agreed to form a solution. To give you an example the vast majority of TCs think that if the GCs get back their properties they will ALL return. Not even 1 in 10 will return….

[anti-nationalist]

Dear Pyripolizer greek cypriots are not even critisize EOKA tactics ( Except some of the ultra leftist groups like erkatiki dimokratia ). You may say EOKA was not against to Tc s. if you say that they are not it is not true. But if you say that turkish cypriots were koubacies and shamisaries in the eye of Gc s and they were not taken into account i accept it.
But here at least half of the society is critisizing the aims and tactics of TMT. You have to accept that both groups Was a NATO product in the begining of cold war. Think about this one: why the anti-colonial struggle suddenly started everywhere after WW II . is there any relation with US dominated new world order?. and think about who benefited from this type of rightist anti colonialist movements.
you are saying:
" After we all read these you may come back and tell me if the young Eoka fighters were by 99% real idealist heros or not". Dont worry my friend i read many books on greek nationalism. they are idealist heros?
dont forget that the Nazis SS also was idealist heros. Idealist heros are the people that fight against apartheid, xenofobia, and opression as internationally. For me nationalists are sick people.
i am sorry but i have say that i dont like your way of talking to me . i fell that you are like a teacher and know every thing and i am a kid.

i am sorry for greek cypriots. we left them as nationalist,religous villager in 1974 and we found them at the same garden in 2000s. But belive me koubacies and shamisaries change too much. if you accept them as a real partners, we can find a solution. But i am sorry we lost the chance in 2004 and we will not catch it again.

[Pyrpolizer]

But here at least half of the society is critisizing the aims and tactics of TMT.

And here 99% of the people criticise EokaB. The truth must be said either it is for EokaB or TMT.

Dont worry my friend i read many books on greek nationalism. they are idealist heros?

The titles you read were obviously targetting nationalism. That’s why you got your facts wrong.

[cypezokyli]

purpoliser wrote:

This is another myth you have to clarify. The GCs are ready to accept a Federal solution, and they will support it only if it is fair and gives them back their properties. They are also ready to accept sharing of power as per Federal system. One of the myths the Tcs have is that a Federal system means 50-50 power sharing on everything. It does not. Many GCs don’t even know that A federal system means we will have to share power with the TCs. So you met 1000 ignorant GCs you mixed your own ignorance (no offense meant) for a 50-50 power sharing and you drew wrong conclussions. Its about time we all realise the truth and the kind of solution that is expecting us, understand the other sides true intentions and stop acting on the basis of myths and wrong conclussions

i am really sorry to disagree with you.
first of all we are not talking about "a federation".
we are talking about a specific type of federation (namely BBF) for a country coming out of conflict.
this is indeed a myth we should overcome and we should stop the rediculous comparison (done by both the anti-BBF people and stupitly enough included in the AP itself) between the type of federation meant for cyprus, and all other federations around the world.
there are a number of significant differences, which make comparison useless.

moreover , we had a number of good signals on to what the international community meant with that term. and apparently it is our side that had myths as to what kind of federation we would receive.

here we have a serious problem with our political leadership. they either failed themselves to understand what kind of solution we should expect (i.e. the well known "philosophy of the AP" as accepted by our goverment and our national council) , or they understood but failed to communicate it to the people (or even worse rejected it, in order to get voted only to accept it later on - i.e. klerides).

so it us who live with our own myths and continue with arguments : this federation is like this and this federation is like that. we can ofcource have our own opinion to what a federation means or should mean, but this is not what the international community, and especially the UN understands with that term.
or the same thing argued from another perspective : we obviously failed to communicate to the UN, what we understand by the term BBF, and that it is different from what they understand by it.

this is why the question never stops popping up : what kind of solution do we want ?

because the international communitys opinion is unlikely to change on the basic structure of the solution. we might convince them about some /or any of the other (significant) stupidities included in the final version of the AP , but the basic structure will not change. we should have realised that, way before AP appeared. and at least after the referendum, it should have been clear.

in short and answering the above question, the only possible solutions to the cyppro is a either a BBF (as understood by the UN) or partition.
by that i do not mean that we should have accepted the AP5 .
but , i am afraid that a significant number of people in the no-camp, including politicians, media, forum members etc etc , have not simply rejected that specific plan but its whole phiposophy.

the fact that the topic of one-man-one-vote never stops appearing, shows that people still didnot realise that such an option doesnot exist out there.

and apparently a number of those who have realised are opting for partition - hence the rising trend of that opinion in our side.

[Pyrpolizer]

Cypezokyli in case you did not yet realise it the concept of BBF as expressed in the Anan Plan has already been rejected as it meant 2 separate states or better protectorates that would split sooner or later.

Imo the only elements that will ever survive in a solution concerning the BBF concept, is that we will have a Federal system that the TCs will be governing themselves and we ourselves in two predifined areas. Vast majorities will degrade to simple majorities, settlement restrictions abolished, and property ownership rights be kept by the owners. There might also be a dusguised violation of voting rights, but dressed up to look legal just to systain the Bicommunal character. It will still be called BBF just by name. Thats why I called it a Federal System and not a BBF.

On the other hand notice the TC leadership is actually translating BBF as meaning confederation or 2 separate states.

So if you think the GC people live in a myth, and that any solution will ever deprived them very basic human rights as for example forced deprivation of their properties then it is you who lives in a myth because such solution will simply never be accepted.

As for your only 2 options available i.e BBF or partition, you seem to deliberately forget the ONLY REAL option. Negotiation for the return to the only valid agreements i.e the 1960 agreements.

[cypezokyli]

.... that would split sooner or later.

the certainty people express about the future never ceases to amaze me!

people do not any more use terms of the kind : there was a high probablity that that would have happenned under this and that condition , but are always sure that there opinion about the future would be right.

As for your only 2 options available i.e BBF or partition, you seem to deliberately forget the ONLY REAL option. Negotiation for the return to the only valid agreements i.e the 1960 agreements.

i am sorry that i feel tired right now, to write a reply, so i ll just post a song for you, saying the same thing.
everybody that has new ideas in these forums always forgets to tell us how they will be achieved.

"Η συνέλευση των ποντικών

(Αφοί Κατσιμίχα)

Σ' ένα υπόγειο στην πλατειά Αβησσυνίας
συγκεντρώθηκαν τα ποντίκια μια φορά
για να σκεφτούν πως θα γλιτώσουν μια για πάντα
από του γάτου τον αιώνιο βραχνά

Το συζητάγανε ημέρες και ημέρες
μα τελικά δεν κατάληξαν πουθενά
και είχαν όλοι πια συνειδητοποιήσει
οτι κομπλάρισε η συνέλευση γέρα

Τότε πετάγεται ένας νεαρός και λέει
"βρήκα τη λύση του προβλήματος παιδιά:
Θα πλησιάσουμε την ώρα που κοιμάται
Και θα του δέσουμε κουδούνα στην ουρά"

Κι όλοι φώναξαν: "μπράβο αυτό είναι συμφωνούμε"
και πέρασε η πρόταση του παμψηφεί
Μα ένας γέρος ποντικός τους λέει "δικαίωμα"
και θέτει την εξής ερώτηση:

"Άμα μου λύσετε αυτή την απορία
τότε δε θα 'χω αντίρρηση καμιά
ποιος από 'σας τολμάει το γάτο να ζυγώσει
να του κρεμάσει τη κουδούνα στην ουρά"

Και από τότε έχουν περάσει χίλια χρόνια
κι ακόμα ο γάτος τα ποντίκια κυνηγά
που πα' να πει ότι δε βρέθηκε κανένας
να του κρεμάσει τη κουδούνα στην ουρά

Όλες οι λύσεις είναι φίνες και ωραίες
τότε και μόνο όταν είναι εφικτές
μα σαν δεν έχεις κότσια να τις εφαρμόσεις
άσ' τες καλύτερα καθόλου μην τις λες"

[Viewpoint]

Cypezokyli in case you did not yet realise it the concept of BBF as expressed in the Anan Plan has already been rejected as it meant 2 separate states or better protectorates that would split sooner or later.

Imo the only elements that will ever survive in a solution concerning the BBF concept, is that we will have a Federal system that the TCs will be governing themselves and we ourselves in two predifined areas. Vast majorities will degrade to simple majorities, settlement restrictions abolished, and property ownership rights be kept by the owners. There might also be a dusguised violation of voting rights, but dressed up to look legal just to systain the Bicommunal character. It will still be called BBF just by name. Thats why I called it a Federal System and not a BBF.

On the other hand notice the TC leadership is actually translating BBF as meaning confederation or 2 separate states.

So if you think the GC people live in a myth, and that any solution will ever deprived them very basic human rights as for example forced deprivation of their properties then it is you who lives in a myth because such solution will simply never be accepted.

As for your only 2 options available i.e BBF or partition, you seem to deliberately forget the ONLY REAL option. Negotiation for the return to the only valid agreements i.e the 1960 agreements.

The only valid agreement which you rejected as unfair in 1963 and even tried to change via Akritas plan has become so valuable to you today. What makes you think that something that didnt work back then will work today or will you immediately move to have chnages made to the 1960s which will aboloish TCs rights via the EU? is this your hidden agenda?

Have you still no woken to the fact thet not all refguees will get their properties back, they will have to accept compensation. These of course will also have to be negotiated and if found unsuitable or to one sided will be rejected by the majority of TCs in resounding NO, we to have this right its not exclusive to one side.

[Pyrpolizer]

Have you still no woken to the fact thet not all refguees will get their properties back, they will have to accept compensation.

It is you who is sleeping. No solution can force anyone accept compensation unless his property was used for public projects, moreover the compensation in case he accepts will have to come from the one who holds the property.

These of course will also have to be negotiated and if found unsuitable or to one sided will be rejected by the majority of TCs in resounding NO, we to have this right its not exclusive to one side.

Feel free to do whatever you like, even vote down whatever Turkey will agree for you. I will be there watching ready to burst in laughters. As you can see we already voted NO, and Greece just shut up. Dare do the same with your Mamy Dearest.