Cyprus-Forum.com

[miltiades]

dancingbear , these lunatics dont know their arse from their brain. They bury themselves in their religious fanaticism and cause immense damage to relations between Muslims and the rest. Some of my best friends are Muslims who strongly oppose the nonsense of the fanatics.
If God existed surely he would not condone murder in his name ? If he created all living things would he enjoy witnessing the beheading of one of his creations ? This is the sickness of religion , man made pile of crap to petrify and keep people under the fear of God.
Religion the poison , the cancer of society.

[Sotos]

When two countries are at war it is ok one to throw nuclear bombs on the other and kill 100.000s innocents? An attack of this scale on a city is not premeditated murder against 100.000s of innocent people?

[GorillaGal]

but hiroshimo and nagasaki ended the war sotos. they shouldn't have attacked us in pearl harbor in the first place. yes, it was a horrible thing to do, but in the long run, it saved many. 9-11 was just sensless.

[Jerry]

I wonder how desperate and angry one has to be to do what those terrorists did on 9/11. Just suppose all of Cyprus was invaded and occupied by Turkey (or, conversely, all the T/Cs were kicked out of the north) next week and the world stood by, would any of the contributors to this forum feel mad enough to launch a suicide attack.

[miltiades]

The mentally disturbed loonies will !!
A fight for what you beleive is right.The allies fought the Germans in WW2. No suicide suckers killed innocents in Restaurants , on Buses , in places of worship.

[GorillaGal]

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never forget

[cypezokyli]

but hiroshimo and nagasaki ended the war sotos. they shouldn't have attacked us in pearl harbor in the first place. yes, it was a horrible thing to do, but in the long run, it saved many. 9-11 was just sensless.

thats what i thought as well.
after speaking with japanese, apparently they surrended not bc of the war but bc the USSR decided after germany surrented they would direct troops towards japan.
on the other hand when it coms to nazis germanys defeat the attacks on civilians was critical. ofcource the attack on the wifes and children of nazis was justified by saying : the purpose was to end the war.
i will not get into an argument on whether such an argument can morally justify, attacks on civilians (especially from the side that argues to fight for democracy). instead i will accept the argument as valid.

the danger that comes when we ourselves legalise attacks on civilians with the pretext "the end justifies the means" then we are giving these fanatics arguments.
reading the first fanatic of all - osamas himself letter to the amercian people, he uses exactly the same arguements. (he also uses a lot of islamic crap excuses but his basic argumentation is no different than the one you have used ):

Why are we fighting and opposing you? The answer is very simple:

(1) Because you attacked us and continue to attack us.

a) You attacked us in Palestine:

(i) Palestine, which has sunk under military occupation for more than 80 years. The British handed over Palestine, with your help and your support, to the Jews, who have occupied it for more than 50 years; years overflowing with oppression, tyranny, crimes, killing, expulsion, destruction and devastation. The creation and continuation of Israel is one of the greatest crimes, and you are the leaders of its criminals. And of course there is no need to explain and prove the degree of American support for Israel. The creation of Israel is a crime which must be erased. Each and every person whose hands have become polluted in the contribution towards this crime must pay its*price, and pay for it heavily.

(ii) It brings us both laughter and tears to see that you have not yet tired of repeating your fabricated lies that the Jews have a historical right to Palestine, as it was promised to them in the Torah. Anyone who disputes with them on this alleged fact is accused of anti-semitism. This is one of the most fallacious, widely-circulated fabrications in history. The people of Palestine are pure Arabs and original Semites. It is the Muslims who are the inheritors of Moses (peace be upon him) and the inheritors of the real Torah that has not been changed. Muslims believe in all of the Prophets, including Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon them all. If the followers of Moses have been promised a right to Palestine in the Torah, then the Muslims are the most worthy nation of this.

...
(iii) The blood pouring out of Palestine must be equally revenged. You must know that the Palestinians do not cry alone; their women are not widowed alone; their sons are not orphaned alone.

(b) You attacked us in Somalia; you supported the Russian atrocities against us in Chechnya, the Indian oppression against us in Kashmir, and the Jewish aggression against us in Lebanon.

(c) Under your supervision, consent and orders, the governments of our countries which act as your agents, attack us on a daily basis;

(i) These governments prevent our people from establishing the Islamic Shariah, using violence and lies to do so.

(ii) These governments give us a taste of humiliation, and places us in a large prison of fear and subdual.

(iii) These governments steal our Ummah's wealth and sell them to you at a paltry price.

(iv) These governments have surrendered to the Jews, and handed them most of Palestine, acknowledging the existence of their state over the dismembered limbs of their own people.

(v) The removal of these governments is an obligation upon us, and a necessary step to free the Ummah, to make the Shariah the supreme law and to regain Palestine. And our fight against these governments is not separate from out fight against you.

(d) You steal our wealth and oil at paltry prices because of you international influence and military threats. This theft is indeed the biggest theft ever witnessed by mankind in the history of the world.

(e) Your forces occupy our countries; you spread your military bases throughout them; you corrupt our lands, and you besiege our sanctities, to protect the security of the Jews and to ensure the continuity of your pillage of our treasures.

(f) You have starved the Muslims of Iraq, where children die every day. It is a wonder that more than 1.5 million Iraqi children have died as a result of your sanctions, and you did not show concern. Yet when 3000 of your people died, the entire world rises and has not yet sat down.

(g) You have supported the Jews in their idea that Jerusalem is their eternal capital, and agreed to move your embassy there. With your help and under your protection, the Israelis are planning to destroy the Al-Aqsa mosque. Under the protection of your weapons, Sharon entered the Al-Aqsa mosque, to pollute it as a preparation to capture and destroy it.

(2) These tragedies and calamities are only a few examples of your oppression and aggression against us. It is commanded by our religion and intellect that the oppressed have a right to return the aggression. Do not await anything from us but Jihad, resistance and revenge. Is it in any way rational to expect that after America has attacked us for more than half a century, that we will then leave her to live in security and peace?!!

(3) You may then dispute that all the above does not justify aggression against civilians, for crimes they did not commit and offenses in which they did not partake:

(a) This argument contradicts your continuous repetition that America is the land of freedom, and its leaders in this world. Therefore, the American people are the ones who choose their government by way of their own free will; a choice which stems from their agreement to its policies. Thus the American people have chosen, consented to, and affirmed their support for the Israeli oppression of the Palestinians, the occupation and usurpation of their land, and its continuous killing, torture, punishment and expulsion of the Palestinians. The American people have the ability and choice to refuse the policies of their Government and even to change it if they want.

(b) The American people are the ones who pay the taxes which fund the planes that bomb us in Afghanistan, the tanks that strike and destroy our homes in Palestine, the armies which occupy our lands in the Arabian Gulf, and the fleets which ensure the blockade of Iraq. These tax dollars are given to Israel for it to continue to attack us and penetrate our lands. So the American people are the ones who fund the attacks against us, and they are the ones who oversee the expenditure of these monies in the way they wish, through their elected candidates.

(c) Also the American army is part of the American people. It is this very same people who are shamelessly helping the Jews fight against us.

(d) The American people are the ones who employ both their men and their women in the American Forces which attack us.

(e) This is why the American people cannot be not innocent of all the crimes committed by the Americans and Jews against us.

(f) Allah, the Almighty, legislated the permission and the option to take revenge. Thus, if we are attacked, then we have the right to attack back. Whoever has destroyed our villages and towns, then we have the right to destroy their villages and towns. Whoever has stolen our wealth, then we have the right to destroy their economy. And whoever has killed our civilians, then we have the right to kill theirs.

The American Government and press still refuses to answer the question:

Why did they attack us in New York and Washington?

If Sharon is a man of peace in the eyes of Bush, then we are also men of peace!!! America does not understand the language of manners and principles, so we are addressing it using the language it understands.
...
You have destroyed nature with your industrial waste and gases more than any other nation in history. Despite this, you refuse to sign the Kyoto agreement so that you can secure the profit of your greedy companies and*industries. (who would have thought, bin laden has enviromental concerns as well )
...
You who dropped a nuclear bomb on Japan, even though Japan was ready to negotiate an end to the war
...
(b)Your policy on prohibiting and forcibly removing weapons of mass destruction to ensure world peace: it only applies to those countries which you do not permit to possess such weapons. As for the countries you consent to, such as Israel, then they are allowed to keep and use such weapons to defend their security. Anyone else who you suspect might be manufacturing or keeping these kinds of weapons, you call them criminals and you take military action against them.

(c)You are the last ones to respect the resolutions and policies of International Law, yet you claim to want to selectively punish anyone else who does the same. Israel has for more than 50 years been pushing UN resolutions and rules against the wall with the full support of America.
....
(e)You have claimed to be the vanguards of Human Rights, and your Ministry of Foreign affairs issues annual reports containing statistics of those countries that violate any Human Rights. However, all these things vanished when the Mujahideen hit you, and you then implemented the methods of the same documented governments that you used to curse. In America, you captured thousands the Muslims and Arabs, took them into custody with neither reason, court trial, nor even disclosing their names. You issued newer, harsher laws.

What happens in Guatanamo is a historical embarrassment to America and its values, and it screams into your faces - you hypocrites, "What is the value of your signature on any agreement or treaty?"

....

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/worldvie ... 25,00.html

you see, his own end justifies his means - using exactly the same logic.
we might ofcource argue for ours if his "end" is "right" , but nevertheless the argument is the same (besides, what do the japanese thing about our own "end" ? )

while on the other hand , if we have made it our rule and principle that we do not attack civilians to achieve other targets however rightful we believe those targets are, then we would have the right to complain.

i hope you understand that I in no way accept bin ladens argumentation. I dont accept attack on civilians no matter what. but if we accept it once on the grounds to achieve what we believe is right, then we should expect that everyone else will do the same to justify their own "right"

[EUropean666]

Greek talibans? Can you explain please?

The Greek orthodox leadership and left/right wingers. Only few liberals are indicating the truth on war against islamism and terrorism.

[miltiades]

KIKAPU WROTE:

"""The towers and the pentagon were targeted. The buildings were the main targets. Those that got killed were not the targets. They were the results of targeting the symbols of American capitalism and it's military might. So, all those that die from crimes committed by fanatics, bank robbers, rapist murderers etc. are all victims. 3,000 victims from 9/11 committed by fanatics, or 3,000 victims committed by common criminal is the same results """

Kikapu , stick to writing films , at least films are make belief , so you are saying that AL QUEDA targeted only the buildings by using humans on the aircraft as merely as an incidental process.
Kikapu , you are my dear friend talking absolute poppycock, balderdash , crap.
You have excelled your self by submitting the most ridiculous equation on what the majority of thinking people consider the 9/11 events as the most horrendous catastrophe of the 21st century , so far , the events of 9/11 KIKAPU , were the the beginning of Afghanistan , Iraq and many more to follow, those who are the victims of Bank robbers , road accidents , rapist murders DO NOT PRECIPITATED WARS where thousand die. On balance you are a likable and amiable chap , but biased for reasons that I can not make out.
You have positioned your self high up amongst those that Bin Laden would be proud to have as spokespersons, the other one being Zyperzokily.

[miltiades]

Zyperzokily , I wrote the above suggesting that both you and Kikapu are high up on the agenda of Bin Laden's spokesperson , and surprise surprise you simultaneously post the Bin Laden philosophy extract. I was right about you from the start, I'm surprised at Kikapu however.