Cyprus-Forum.com

[CypRiot]

Obviously what GC's expect out of a "fair" solution is very disticnt than TC's expectations of a "fair" solution... Isn't this the reason why we are still arguing in here? It is impossible for both sides to be %100 satisfied, so we should give&take, both benefiting as much as possible.

Numberwise, TC's might be a minority, but equal representation rights are a must! TC's can not accept to be a minority again. Whats suggested in the Annan plan is reasonable.

TC's do not want to re-live 63-74 period. Turkeys military existence is essential for protection. On the other hand, Turkey will not approve of an agreement which will not protect its military existence anyway. So it is pointless to even discuss this.

Annan plan defines an acceptable path for both sides in this dillema. No one gets what they want, and the solution looks (if not %100) free from bias.

I just want to express that rumors on how the GC administration had a hand in the preparetion of the Annan plan, long before it was presented disturbs me. I believe this was confessed by Kleridis in an interview, after his presidency period ended... This also worries me on actually how neutral the plan is...

[Papas]

Obviously what GC's expect out of a "fair" solution is very disticnt than TC's expectations of a "fair" solution... Isn't this the reason why we are still arguing in here? It is impossible for both sides to be %100 satisfied, so we should give&take, both benefiting as much as possible.

Well, PEACE asked why GC's are not in the streets like TC's. I think my answer is clear: This plan benefits TC's way more than it benefits GC's.
Refugees are about 200.000 and not all of them will return according to Anans plan. The total number of GC's in Cyprus is about 700.000. Sure, there are some benefits for the rest of GC's, but disadvantages are so much more that GC's will think twice before agreeing to such plan, let alone be so excited from it that they will go out in the streets like TC's.

Numberwise, TC's might be a minority, but equal representation rights are a must! TC's can not accept to be a minority again. Whats suggested in the Annan plan is reasonable.

TC's do not want to re-live 63-74 period. Turkeys military existence is essential for protection. On the other hand, Turkey will not approve of an agreement which will not protect its military existence anyway. So it is pointless to even discuss this.

I am sorry, but for a person born and living in a democracy I can only accept that one person equals one vote. Sure in our separate federal states we can vote for our own leaders. But for the central government we are all just Cypriots and nothing more or less.
This is an example of the disadvantages I was talking above. You are asking from us to give up democracy. !!!!

Annan plan defines an acceptable path for both sides in this dillema. No one gets what they want, and the solution looks (if not %100) free from bias.

In the same logic if we asked for the whole Cyprus and half of Turkey and we were given just the whole Cyprus and one forth of Turkey the solution would be free of bias and fair because we didn't get everything that we asked for!

I just want to express that rumors on how the GC administration had a hand in the preparetion of the Annan plan, long before it was presented disturbs me. I believe this was confessed by Kleridis in an interview, after his presidency period ended... This also worries me on actually how neutral the plan is...

no comment

[CypRiot]

Lets not analyze who will benefit more, as you know TC's do not have a representative in the negotiation table. No one is defending our needs or requests, so it does not make sense to say "TC's benefit more". NO this is not true, how can we benefit more if noone is advocating our rights? Dont tell me Denktas, he is only backing Turkey and making everything more difficult than it already is.

Refugees are about 200.000 and not all of them will return according to Anans plan. The total number of GC's in Cyprus is about 700.000. Sure, there are some benefits for the rest of GC's, but disadvantages are so much more that GC's will think twice before agreeing to such plan, let alone be so excited from it that they will go out in the streets like TC's.

I invite you to be realistic here. Both you and I know that not all of those 200k refugees will return in any kind of peace agreement (even if not with annans plan). Consider your gains! You have an opportunity to receive part of the lands you lost in 1974, and for that you will be a PARTICIPANT in a new DEMOCRATIC system, constructed upon 2 constituent states (and one central). I dont see any sacrifices given here by the GC's. The other option you have is NOT to reconcile and continue the status quo. Your loss is the land offered in the peace plan... Our loss is international recognition.

I am sorry, but for a person born and living in a democracy I can only accept that one person equals one vote. Sure in our separate federal states we can vote for our own leaders. But for the central government we are all just Cypriots and nothing more or less.
This is an example of the disadvantages I was talking above. You are asking from us to give up democracy. !!!!

Oh bummer, I totally missed that, I must not have read all of the Annan plan!!!! Can you please tell me exactly where TC's votes are multiplied by 3 or whatever???? On the other hand, are you trying to say America is not democratic??? Because what is offered in the Annan plan is very similar to the US federal democratic system. In the presidential elections in US, each states votes is counted as one (depending on the majority within that state), and depending on how many states support each candidate, the winner is choosen. So Nebraska with 1.7 million population has 1 vote, and California with 35.4 million population has 1 vote too. So are you suggesting that Nebraska's vote is counted as 21??? Please explain me in detail how the democracy is being given up?

Even if it was like you are implying, EU would not admit a non-democratic country. Since the plan is already offered by EU, what you are saying is completely irrational...

In the same logic if we asked for the whole Cyprus and half of Turkey and we were given just the whole Cyprus and one forth of Turkey the solution would be free of bias and fair because we didn't get everything that we asked for!

This is a very unrealistic assumption. You are asking for over %90 of the land we are living in right now. You are offered 33% of this right away. Within 20 years, you will be having the chance to live in almost over %60 of what you lost in 74. This is a very very good recovery, compared to getting none.

Also one more thing, please tell me all the disadv of the Annan plan from the GC point of view. I am just curious to learn. To me it seems like you are not loosing that much, except for having us as equal partners (which shouldn't be a problem anyway, but oh well!).

[FinalFantasy]

Well, PEACE asked why GC's are not in the streets like TC's. I think my answer is clear: This plan benefits TC's way more than it benefits GC's.
Refugees are about 200.000 and not all of them will return according to Anans plan. The total number of GC's in Cyprus is about 700.000. Sure, there are some benefits for the rest of GC's, but disadvantages are so much more that GC's will think twice before agreeing to such plan, let alone be so excited from it that they will go out in the streets like TC's.



Soz why denktash saying on the news that Annan plan is not acceptable (if its benefits of TC's)? Is it bec of trying to get more benefits for Turkey not for TC's? Can you please tell me your comments? And after the 1st of may if Turkey still invades the north part, what'll happen? What EU or the other countries gonna do? ( me needs more opinions here) Thanks for yall

[Guest]

Lets not analyze who will benefit more, as you know TC's do not have a representative in the negotiation table. No one is defending our needs or requests, so it does not make sense to say "TC's benefit more". NO this is not true, how can we benefit more if noone is advocating our rights? Dont tell me Denktas, he is only backing Turkey and making everything more difficult than it already is.

ok, Dectash is backing Turkish interests, but unfortunatly even the oposition adopts most of them (settlers to remain in Cyprus, Turkish troups etc).
Sure, the plan could be made in such a way that foreign interests could be left out and both TC's and GC's would beneft more. Still that doesn't mean that the plan as is today doesn't benefit TC's more than GC's.

I invite you to be realistic here. Both you and I know that not all of those 200k refugees will return in any kind of peace agreement (even if not with annans plan). Consider your gains! You have an opportunity to receive part of the lands you lost in 1974, and for that you will be a PARTICIPANT in a new DEMOCRATIC system, constructed upon 2 constituent states (and one central). I dont see any sacrifices given here by the GC's. The other option you have is NOT to reconcile and continue the status quo. Your loss is the land offered in the peace plan... Our loss is international recognition.

Yes, I said that not all of the 200.000 will return. So if say 100.000 return, then we are left with 600.000 GC's that will gain very little. Anan's plan will not give for us democracy. We have already a democracy which is much more democratic than what is sugested in that plan.

Oh bummer, I totally missed that, I must not have read all of the Annan plan!!!! Can you please tell me exactly where TC's votes are multiplied by 3 or whatever???? On the other hand, are you trying to say America is not democratic??? Because what is offered in the Annan plan is very similar to the US federal democratic system. In the presidential elections in US, each states votes is counted as one (depending on the majority within that state), and depending on how many states support each candidate, the winner is choosen. So Nebraska with 1.7 million population has 1 vote, and California with 35.4 million population has 1 vote too. So are you suggesting that Nebraska's vote is counted as 21??? Please explain me in detail how the democracy is being given up?

Even if it was like you are implying, EU would not admit a non-democratic country. Since the plan is already offered by EU, what you are saying is completely irrational...

I guess you missed that part then. And I would take the US system any day .. that would be perfect actually. But you are very wrong about US system. Nebraska elects only 5 electors where California elects 55.
http://www.thegreenpapers.com/G04/Elect ... ?sort=Alph
Would you agree to have in Cyprus the US system???

This is a very unrealistic assumption. You are asking for over %90 of the land we are living in right now. You are offered 33% of this right away. Within 20 years, you will be having the chance to live in almost over %60 of what you lost in 74. This is a very very good recovery, compared to getting none.

We are not offered 33% of the land you are living now! How did you come to that number? And TC's have always been welcomed to come and live not in 60% but the 100% of Cyprus.

Also one more thing, please tell me all the disadv of the Annan plan from the GC point of view. I am just curious to learn. To me it seems like you are not loosing that much, except for having us as equal partners (which shouldn't be a problem anyway, but oh well!).

The main disadvantage is that this plan will create a non democratic state that will not be able to function correctly. Its not fair and will create conflicts again like in the past. Add to this that foreign troups will remain in Cyprus and you have the perfect recipe for disaster.

Its easy for you to say "equal paretners". We want all Cypriots to be equal - one person one vote for central goverment. Tell me how the following things from Annan's plan are democratic:

The Presidential Council shall strive to reach decisions by consensus. Where it fails to reach consensus, it shall, unless otherwise specified, take decisions by simple majority of members voting, provided this comprises at least one member from each {component state}.

The offices of President and Vice-President of the Council shall rotate every ten calendar months among members of the Council. No more than two consecutive Presidents may come from the same {component state}.

So basicaly a minority of 18% can have a veto on everything.

So say Dectash in your elections gets only 18%, would you find it democratic if Dectash with his 18% will be able to veto every decision taken and also that Dectash should be president every 20 months?

Why do you expect from us to accept such thing? For me living in a secure democratic country is much more important from some square killometers of land that we will get back.

[Papas]

The above "guest" was me. Forgot to log-in!

Soz why denktash saying on the news that Annan plan is not acceptable (if its benefits of TC's)? Is it bec of trying to get more benefits for Turkey not for TC's? Can you please tell me your comments? And after the 1st of may if Turkey still invades the north part, what'll happen? What EU or the other countries gonna do? ( me needs more opinions here) Thanks for yall

Dectash is trying to get more benefits for himself and his family I believe. He is a leader with influence even in Turkey for several decates. If a solution is found he is just part of the history and nothing more.

After 1st of May Turkey will occupie a part of the EU. EU countries will not take drastic mesures like war or anything like that, but Turkey - EU relationship will have many problems.

[FinalFantasy]

Can't belive it! Bec of his own benefits he's playing with TC's and GC's lives and our futures! I dont' care about his family! don't care what properties he has! I just want my own country live in peace! Hope Denktash loose the elections..but i've a little hope for that..bec at this moment denktash gaved a lot passport to turkish citizens 2 give their votes 4 his own parties! Majority of TC's doesn't want his parties to win! But they have a little hope at this moment...like MAYBE DEMOCRACY WINS! dont know what would happen but hope democracy wins in norht part! fingers crossed!

[Noname75]

Unfortunatly for all Cypriots a fair solution will not be found because foreign powers like Turkey, and lets not forget UK, want to ensure their interests in Cyprus are secure.

Even the president doesn't talk about a fair solution anymore. Just a functional one.

I too have doubts that the Annan plan as it is today can provide a functional solution, but I hope it can be improved.

[CypRiot]

Sure, the plan could be made in such a way that foreign interests could be left out and both TC's and GC's would beneft more.

I personally do not believe that an agreement which outs all the foreign interest is possible. US+UK and Turkey have great interests in Cyprus. All the spy stations and early nuclear warning systems are still operational, and releasing such important military points would remove significant control power from US+UK in the middle east.

Still that doesn't mean that the plan as is today doesn't benefit TC's more than GC's.

Again, TC's are not benefiting more. We have lots of people who have relocated in 74 too, but noone is even discussing what is going to happen to their properties. According to Annan plan GC's are moving north, but TC's are not moving south, not even a single sentence is mentioned in regards to this matter! Majority of the property (that was owned by TC's) is already overtaken by the GC government, and there is no logical explanation as to why that happened.

Please do not tell me that the TC's are free to live in South. Under unequal conditions? We have no representation in any stage of the GC government, TC's are not permitted to vote in south, we are only issued 2 yr passports where GC's issued 10yr, etc etc.... It is obvious that not all GC's are equal with TC's under your government. Police violence and discrimination is also something that has been known around. Just the other day I read that a TC who made an entry through a GC port, has been questioned for hours for no reason!!! Under such conditions, no thank you!

You may or may not be a Turk hater, but there are such persons in south, and they will do everything in their power to make life hell for Turks.

Yes, I said that not all of the 200.000 will return. So if say 100.000 return, then we are left with 600.000 GC's that will gain very little.

So what did those 500k has lost in the first place that they are not getting back? What is your understanding of the term Peace? You probably acknowledge this word as getting as much as possible for GC's, thus your comment.

If annan plan is put in operation, then more than 100k will return, and everyone no matter TC or GC will benefit one way or another. Sacrifices has to be given by both side. Lets not be selfish please...

Anan's plan will not give for us democracy. We have already a democracy which is much more democratic than what is sugested in that plan.

Your system is not democratic to start with!!! A country who deos not permit part of its citizens to vote can not be called democratic. And how exactly the Anan plan is not? Please tell me in conceptwise in your comments, not with references to the actual planl...

Nebraska elects only 5 electors where California elects 55.
http://www.thegreenpapers.com/G04/Elect ... ?sort=Alph
Would you agree to have in Cyprus the US system???

I wasnt talking about the seats. I mentioned the presidential election where no matter the population, each state has 1 vote!

And yes, annan plan is similar to the US system, because the distribution of the seats in the central government will be in accordance with the population of the component states. Likewise in the US system.

We are not offered 33% of the land you are living now! How did you come to that number?

Sorry that was my typo. I meant to type 22%.

And TC's have always been welcomed to come and live not in 60% but the 100% of Cyprus.

Yes, please go up and read my comments as to under which conditions. A democratic system where its own citizens are not permitted to vote? Discrimination and such?? lol very democratic indeed. I choose not to live like a dog thanks.

References you made to the Annan plan are essential. Those circuit breakers must be in place, so the events occured in 1963 will not happen again. Othervise you will just pass any legislation you want, and control us the way you want (thus the gurantee of Turkey). This is not acceptable. We are on the island, we are citizens and we must have a say on everything related to us and to our contry.

So basicaly a minority of 18% can have a veto on everything.

Actually no! We will not be involved with your component state, and vice versa. But the central will be admitted by both. And thats how it should be.

Denktas is a TC and we are TC, we both belong to the same roots and religios beliefs, so the example you given doesnt make sense sorry.

Annan plan is the secure democratic system. Not KKTC or not the GC Administration. Neither is ideal for both communities to live in, in harmony. Annan plan is the most acceptable I believe.

[Papas]

You say that TC's are not treated in equal way by the only legal goverment in Cyprus.
If a Greek Cypriot was doing what TC's are doing for the last 30 years you know where he would be? in jail!
Being a citizen of a country doesn't mean only rights, you have several responsibilities. And you have to respect the laws also. TC's come to the south and want their rights and forget that being a citizen also means some responsibilities and respect of the law of the country of which you are citizen. You do not pay taxes, you do not care to respect the laws, you support the illigal stealing of properties of 200.000 people, and then you say that we treat you badly because the passport you get is for 2 years instead of 10. Please, give me a break!!!!.

You can stop supporting the illigal state of the north and join the Rebublic of Cyprus and you will be exactly equal to any other Cypriot. Do not forget that TCs are not the only minority in Cyprus. We have Armenians, Maronites and Latins, who are also official minorities. Those people recognize the Republic of Cyprus and obey its laws and get exactly what GCs get.

The problem is that equal is not enough for you. You want more. And as we say in Cyprus "The one who wants too much at the end looses everything".

I wasnt talking about the seats. I mentioned the presidential election where no matter the population, each state has 1 vote!

Wrong. Nebraska gets 5 votes California 55 for presidential election. Please check your sources before you reply again about this.

Again I will repeat that because you do not want to live united with us we agreed on a federation system.

Unfortunatly it seems to me that the only reason you want a solution now is the EU. You want to be as separated from us as possible but be in the EU at the same time.
The Republic of Cyprus is the one who is recognized by the EU, the Republic of Cyprus is the one who made application to enter the EU, the Republic of Cyprus is the one who had to meet the economic critiria, the Republic of Cyprus was the one that had to harmonize all its laws according to the EU, the Republic of Cyprus is the one who has been accepted. The Republic of Cyprus is the one who is going to join the EU on May 1st.

We are ready to welcome you back and forget the last 30 years. We accepted federation. We are willing to transform the Republic of Cyprus to something like United Cyprus. BUT we will never vote for something that is unfair and give us no benefit, just because it will benefit some others.

So do you want to talk about a fair democratic solution where human rights are respected?