Cyprus-Forum.com

[elko]

I have not visited this forum for months but I see that the same old Sotos and his likes are active. so I have not missed anything.
I heard that after the Orams decision your "lawyers" started parading the TV channels and saying that this decision will be reversed. I am affraid they are either very ignorant or just telling people downright lies. Here is the truth as I see it. Please feel to comment if you do have a different view but I hope you can keep it civil and logical. I have a feeling that the Greek Cypriot education is so much biased against Turkish Cypriots and with so much hatred, most of them are not able to discuss anything logically. Anyway here are my vies wrt Orams:

The courts are not always places for getting justice. This may sound as a
very odd statement but those who know something about courts will confirm this. Whatever your views on the subject, the fact remains that courts all over the world act within the restrictions of laws and proceedure.

The European Court of Justice ECJ will have the final say about the
interpratation of Protocol 10. My view is that they will uphold the decision
of UK judge but I do admit that they may decide otherwise. However
Apostoledis has another big legal problem. The UK judge found that Orams were not given sufficient time to put in a defence and the case was decided in Cyprus in their absence. He made this decision after inquiring into the circumstances of this case, i.e. he ruled on "facts". It is unheard of for higher courts to interfere with the "findings of facts" of lower courts because they are the people who have a chance to listen to the witnessess and also observe their sincerity, body language and all that. To put it simply, decisions are made on "Law" and "Facts". Higher courts may think differently about the meaning of "Laws" but even though they have the power they never interfere with the findings of facts. In the case of ECJ, I am not even sure if they do have the jurisdiction to interfere with "Facts" but I am certain that they will not.
So my prediction is that Candudas will try his chance with another brand new case and forget Apostoledis.
ismet

[miltiades]

Elco wrote:
""I have not visited this forum for months but I see that the same old Sotos and his likes are active. so I have not missed anything"

Wrong ! You have missed so much , go back and read some of the posts be Alexis , Sadik , Natty in particular, Pasha and dare I say some of my postings along with Kifeas, Piratis, Pyrpolizer , Kikapu , mrfromng , Simon with his magnificent gesture and contribution to the Cyprus identity .
I say you have missed an awful lot , but welcome back and do reflect on some of the older postings.

May I also agree that the educationalists in Cyprus have a lot to answer for and it is time that the teaching of hatred towards our fellow citizens , G/C and T/Cs is reversed to the promotion of love and understanding of our Cypriot people. Have a read at VP's postings , there is an example of typical hatred , Alexander's , and Malakas both full of hatred , but Look what Natty says , Alexis , Sadik and all those of us that have placed the interests of our island high up on the scale of priorities.
My own views are well known and have been consistent right through , whether is to do with my feelings towards my Turkish Cypriot compatriots , the Annan Plan , my support of the West , my views on family values , animal welfare and above all my views on religion's adverse influence on life in general.
This is my last post for a week or so but I will be back.

[Viewpoint]

miltiades you have got it wrong I do not hate GCs but I do not trust them at all.

People like you promote brotherly love and reunifcation to someone who does not trust the intentions of the other party. What do u really expect me to do? go into it blindly with my past telling me that these people do not have your best interests at heart or do you feel I should not ask for safety measures to ensure that me and my community will not be bypassed, discriminted against or put in danger in a united Cyprus dominated by GCs?

[elko]

Militiades,
Thank you for your input, I do appreciate it but you must realize that you are in the minority as far as Greek Cypriot population is concerned. In the north, we do not teach hatred towards the Greek Cypriots, believe me it is all one sided, so you do have a serious problem.

I would really like to hear from the people who know something about legal matters and see if they agree with me or not that Apostoledis has no chance of winning an appeal under the circumstances. I gave my reasoning. I would love to hear the reasoning behind it and not just blind belief in "justice".
ismet

[MarsdenCuckoo]

Seems like the 'outside world' is finally waking up to this whole subject matter. Yesterday's UK Daily Mail (printed in Greece) has at its 'Debate' article: "Are Greeks Still Wronged Over Cyprus Property?"

(Article repeated here for those interested)

"The Yes Side of the Debate:

For years, GC families have had to live with the memory of being forced from their homes by Turkish invaders. No government bothered to intervene when these families lost their livelihoods. No government felt the need to take the moral high ground and demand they were given back what whas rightfully theirs.
My grandfather was one of those GC residents forced out of his home when he was just a boy. His family was left with nothing, and he eventually travelled to England at the age of just 15 in the hope of a better life. If he were alive today, I'm sure he would be appalled to see the wife of our Prime Minster helping to ensure that justice is not done for the GC people. Cherie Blair had no place getting involved in this case , but, like her husband, she has barged in and ignored the rights of the neediest people. In overturning a ruling that would have seen the Greek landowners finally get some compensation, she has effectively declared that the hardship and suffering my grandfather endured at the hands of the Turkish invaders were worth less than the right of a British couple to have a holiday home in the sun. Thanks a lot, Cherie.
Emma Tofi, Wadebridge, Cornwall

The No Side of the Debate:

The event of 1974 wasn't so much a Turkish 'invasion' as a 'rescue' operation to protect Turkish and other foreign nationals being killed by the Greeks after their coup d'etat to oust President Makarios. The first few days were taken up with settling old scores between themselves, then they turned on the outsiders. The Turks called it the "Mathew's Operation" in honour of an elderly English lady who was killed on her doorstep in Kyrenia.
In 1975, the Greek Republic Government asked for claims to land left behind in the North. The resulting claims answers amounted to property three times the size of the whole island. The end result was that Turkish property in the south was given to Greek refugees from the north. Many Turks were driven from their homes and busineses to the north where they were allocated land in lieu of what they had lost in the south. When the Turkish side later allowed the Greeks re-entry to the north, the government decided that if a northern property were to be reclaimed, the allocated property on the south should be forfeited. There weren't many takers, however, because, 30 years on, the Greeks had developed much of that land.
Name and Address Supplied"

Personally I think it's good that this subject matter is being debated in one of the major UK National papers, however, I purposely retyped the article word for word - to check their length. Both sides of the Debate, it seems, are approximately the same length... wonder why the Yes answer (which is printed in bold type) takes up 63 sqcm whereas the No answer (printed in normal text) only takes up 52 sqcm????

Yavas yavas/siga siga - progress is always slow!!!

[Kifeas]

cuckoo, can you provides us with a link or a copy of the above article in the above newspaper?

[Pyrpolizer]

Elco,

In a discussion forum we don’t debate the things we agree we debate the things we disagree. We may even challenge things we actually agree -pretending we don’t agree- just to learn something more out of our confrontment.
Experienced debators know how to learn from this process. Inexperienced debators get wrong messages.
You belong to the class of inexperienced (no offense meant).

[elko]

Pyrpolizer,
It is nice to know that everybody agrees with me because so far nobody has objected to my reasoning. I hope you are right. so who are going to tell all these lawyers who paraded on the TV Channels and said the opposite?

I am used to serious discussions, so no offense taken here
ismet

PS: My nick is ELKO with a "K"

[MarsdenCuckoo]

cuckoo, can you provides us with a link or a copy of the above article in the above newspaper?

Hi having probs with my laptop - keeps crashing - so, sorry, not able to find the link for you but you can maybe find the article on www.dailymail.co.uk As I said it was in 13 Sept edition, page 55

Pyrpoli.... will have to come back to you re. your 'nice' comments when my laptop stops crashing....

[MarsdenCuckoo]

Elco,

In a discussion forum we don’t debate the things we agree we debate the things we disagree. We may even challenge things we actually agree -pretending we don’t agree- just to learn something more out of our confrontment.
Experienced debators know how to learn from this process. Inexperienced debators get wrong messages.
You belong to the class of inexperienced (no offense meant).

Oops - apologies Pyrpolizer - in my haste to read things before 'I' crashed again, misread your message. (Thought you were having a 'pop' at me again.... peerish the thought!!! )