Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kifeas]

i have expressed many times that the strategy to solve the cyprus problem in court is not very wise.

on the case at hand, i believe that apostolides will win in the end.

Pezo, can you please explain to me who has such a strategy as above? I personally know of no one of the GC political parties that refuses to negotiate a political settlement of the Cyprus problem, simply because it is their strategy to solve it through the courts. Who did you hear to have such an objective?

It is about time we start passing through a more critical eye some of the nonsense that we read in the press by some journalists.

[reportfromcyprus]

At least the attorney general is speaking sensibly about things. Practically speaking, nothing has changed with the legal or political situation. Apostolides and Orams just have massive stress and legal bills added to their lives.

[cypezokyli]

can you tell me what exactly our strategy is ?
not so much in vague targets , but as the means to achieve them.

[Viewpoint]

cypezokyli

it is not yet clear what concequences any decision the court might take will have on the cyprus problem and the two communities. it is not even clear if it will stop, the selling of gc properties to foreigners.

the only way to stop this development, is an agreed solution, but the latest attempts for negotiations are showing that talat is no better than papadopoulos. the alleged will from talat to negotiate proved to be a bubble, that is directly connected to the turkish elections and the turkish accession procedure till the end of the year. add tpap to the equation and tell me how many choises a private individual has to protect his property. (dont forget that a number of the most important legal battles that the gcs have won concerning the cyppro, were not initiated from our "able" goverments but from individual people)

well it is clear that for now the Orams and many British buyers can take a deep breath as the authority of the GC do not extend into the north. If the Orams are advised well they will now move to sell their property in the Uk and thus end this silly charade, where lawyers get rich, no one gets what they want and the GC pays a whacking great big bill which he could have used to buy the land back or buy many similar plots of land.

The only way to stop the development in the north is via an agreed settlement which means compromise. If its the TC side which is holding up any negotation process then complain to the the relevent bodies to have pressure applied on us so the process can move forward. The effort spent on pursuing non-productive court cases would be well used to seek ways to expose us as the side that does not want to negotiate if that is in fact the case.

The courts do not solve anything look at the loizdou case, all she got was a mental and financial victory nothing more. Did it resolve the Cyprus issue? no.

the mayhem that might cause is irrelevant to the agreemnts the UK signed. if it is part of the EU agreements to apply the rulings of the cypriot court (which were not challanged btw) then the UK will simply have to apply them. the case will inevitably end in the european courts , so expect another 10+ years of legal procedures. only after there is no other possiblity of appeal can any of the two sides claim "victory". in the meantime all the british (people and courts) might hope to avoid the "mayhem" as you call it, is that during all the expected delays and appeals we will in the meantime strike a deal.

The mayhem is relevent to the UK as the people being taken to court are its own citizens, if the GCs efforts are fruitful then what will it bring those Brits wishing to buy in the TRNC will just sell all their property in the UK and put the money in the bank. There are many ways to get around obstacles these actions will not stop anyone who is really determined to buy or invest here. The drawn out court battle will not do anything to halt developement, the origins of the buyer may change but where theres profit to be made their will always be investors.

moreoever you know all too well, that no tc will be be ever sued for practising what a british citizen is practising, for obvious reasons.

Why not? arent you discriminating against Brits? sue the TCs who sold the land and the one that purchased and sold onto the Orams. Start to serve writs on rich Turkish Cypriot businessmen in the UK who also have villas built on disputed GC land, why not go the whole hog and sue the architect, builders, local authority workers...the list can go on and on.

This is not the way to solve anything, the only resılut this sort of action encourages is the desire for things to stay as they are,

[Kifeas]

i have expressed many times that the strategy to solve the cyprus problem in court is not very wise.

on the case at hand, i believe that apostolides will win in the end.

Will win what? to have the Orams house in Hove sold off to pay the GC costs?

Have you for one minute thought about the mayhem this would cause in the UK it would not only put all British purchasers at risk but also Turkish Cypriots who have bought and used disputed land that have property in the UK. If this is what the GC side want then go for it but if it makes the situation worse dont start to cry but thats not what we wanted to do and blame all and sundry.

This is not the way to go about stopping the development in the north the only way is to reach an agreement with us in exchange for lifting of certain restrictions.

VP, for all the above that you mention, the only one guilty party is the TC leadership! Do you know what Talat said to Candounas, when he met him after the referendums and asked him to take steps and measures to stop this intensified unprecedented attack on GC properties after the referendums? Talat said "there is nothing I can do, and I do not really mind!" When Candunas said to him that he will take legal action, Talat said, "I do not care, do whatever you like!"

When your side -as representatives of the Turkish occupation in the north, have decided to open some of the occupation check points in April 2003, thousands of GCs have cross and visited their homes and properties in the north. For a year and until the referendums, hardly anyone complained about any construction they found in their properties, because up to that time there were still properties available for them to return upon a solution, since the majority of them was still available, even in prominent areas such as Kyrenia and Famagusta. However, since then you declared an unethical looting war against the GC refugees themselves, by massively and indiscriminately cementing thousands of acres of GC land, for the purpose of selling them cheaply to foreigners, or to simply "add value" to them so that you will be able to hold on them based on the property provisions of the unfair (especially on the issue of properties) and consequently failed and nullified Annan plan.

One of the main reasons the TC leadership allowed and even encouraged this unethical practice -besides the whatever undeserved financial gains, was the fact that by depriving GCs of their land upon a solution similar to the Annan plan, you would have secured the complete Turkification of the north areas of Cyprus, since the GCs (you thought) wouldn't have any other serious incentive to return and settle back in those areas. This was basically the underlining policy of your leadership (and Turkey,) i.e. the completion of the ethnic cleansing that you carried out in 1974 against the GCs, by eliminating any reason for even a minority of them to ever return, thus convert the north into an almost purely Turkish populated area, especially without the presence of GCs among you. This was rightfully be seen by the GCs as a very hostile attitude, and in a sense we are left with no other option than to take any possible action to stop it, including individual law suits. However, it is you that has forced our hand in this direction, and the war is not over yet, nor it seems it will ever get over, judging from your leadership's and Turkey's attitudes regarding the issue of "direct trade" and their refusal to "concede" anything towards this direction.

[Viewpoint]

Kifeas I can understand your concerns and the fact that a sudden upsurgence of building in the north is alarming for many GCs. You have every right to take legal action anyway you see fit as I am sure you take into account the results if things do not go your way. The volume of villas being built and sold to brits imho is being blown out of all proportion and the number as the number fo foreigners applying to buy property here do not make up 1% of the total land available. Life goes on and does not wait for either side to wake up one day and say hey lets find a solution this week. The building also includes homes for locals, hotel, hospitals, schools, roads, we are growing and these are very normal developments. If an economy only has certain areas where it is allowed to generate growth is will naturally exploit those areas, if for example you wish to have the sale of GC land halted rather than going to court offer direct flights to Ercan and see what the reaction of our side will be, if they say no then exploit this to the world to show we are the ones who do not want to move forward.

Your hard hitting priorities should not be individual court cases but pursuing a settlement, exposing Turkey and the TCs for you say they are, use all means within your power as the recognized part of Cyprus and a member of the EU to show to the world that the GCs are the ones that want ro resolve things and find a solution beit reunificiation or agreed partition. Prove to the world your are right, if of course you can.

[boomerang]

but viewpoint those properties ain't yours to sell...or you think its finders keepes or something?...you don't see that?...why not just sell crown land?

You are asking the same people to unify and then you keep on selling their land from under their feet...or would you rather see poms rather than fellow Cypriots as neighbours?

Why not give the houses back that you ain't occupying as a gesture of good will...Why not give back ghost town and let people rebuild, knowing the TCs will be the major beneficiaries in the construction...why say no to co-running the port of the ghost town?...why?...would that in anyway interfere with your daily life?...It's a ghost town and ghost port for crying out loud...what you say Turkey will never allow it?

If you think unification will come through negotiations you are misguided...Unification will only come through co-operation and trust...and the above will go a long way towards the right direction.

And by the way, the Orams just bought some more time, a reprieve if you like...they will live their remaining lives hanging around court rooms filled with lawyers...I would say it defeats the purpose of ever getting a holiday home...wouldn't you?

[31. I do not think that the case for Mr and Mrs Orams on this aspect of the appeal can be put in any other way. The land is within the Republic of Cyprus. There is no conflict with Article 22.1 of the Regulation. It is not within the territory of another Member State. The cases in the European Court of Human Rights show that the laws of the TRNC cannot be relied on by Mr and Mrs Orams to deprive Mr Apostolides of his title to the land. In any event that would involve a review of the substance of the judgment of the District Court of 19 April 2005, contrary to Article 36. So on these matters I accept the submissions of Mr Beazley.

I think the above is a warning to furure wannabe buyers...Like a buyer beware...You know it also works both ways...Now its accepted that it ain't your land to sell and you can't keep on conning innocent people to buy...The orams made noises that they weren't told...Oh my gof someone conned them into buying?...Mate these people just stabbed you in the back and you want them as neighbours?...Because someone, according to the orams took them for a ride...

To be honest with you, you seem to be under the impression that you are now free to sell without impunity...Are the builders ever gonna tell the byuers that really you are only buying the structure, and the law can't touch you because the Aquis is suspended in the North?...and you think people are gonna que up?...mate I don't think you read the vertict right...

1...the Orams will not have to sell the house, for now
2...It estblished that the true owner of the land is Apostolides
3...Acquis in the North is suspended, according to the interpretation of the judge...
4...There is an appeal
5...the judge rulled that he couldn't rule...I know it sounds stupid, but a fact.
and you think people are gonna que up to buy property?...I think not...Noone wants to gamble with their life savings only to see them disappapear one day...and certain;y no one thats retired...

[reportfromcyprus]

He'll end up beating himself to death, VP.

Really?

No, metaphorically.

[Kifeas]

He'll end up beating himself to death, VP.

Really?

No, metaphorically.

Oh ...I see..

[Viewpoint]

boomerang

but viewpoint those properties ain't yours to sell...or you think its finders keepes or something?...you don't see that?...why not just sell crown land?

Those lands are now part of the TRNC, an entity recognized or not, where the GC south, EU, UN, Greece can not interfer in or force court rulings. The crown land is minimal when you consider that 80% of land in the north is disputed land its only natural that over time some of this land will be used.

You are asking the same people to unify and then you keep on selling their land from under their feet...or would you rather see poms rather than fellow Cypriots as neighbours?

Now you are fellow Cypriots, where was this thought back in 1960s when all you could think of was Enosis and anihalation of your "fellow Cypriots".

Why not give the houses back that you ain't occupying as a gesture of good will...Why not give back ghost town and let people rebuild, knowing the TCs will be the major beneficiaries in the construction...why say no to co-running the port of the ghost town?...why?...would that in anyway interfere with your daily life?...It's a ghost town and ghost port for crying out loud...what you say Turkey will never allow it?

Why dont you allow free trade with EU and opening of our ports run by TCs just as your ports are run by GCs.
The reason why these ar enot happeneing is not to detract ffrom either side wanting a final solution.

If you think unification will come through negotiations you are misguided...Unification will only come through co-operation and trust...and the above will go a long way towards the right direction.

Trust come before cooperation and unfortunately we have absoulutely no trust between our communities.

And by the way, the Orams just bought some more time, a reprieve if you like...they will live their remaining lives hanging around court rooms filled with lawyers...I would say it defeats the purpose of ever getting a holiday home...wouldn't you?

The Orams have just been made an example to deter potential buyers, they are just pawns in the bigger picture of bringing to end the economical improvement in the TRNC generated by the construction industry.

I think the above is a warning to furure wannabe buyers...Like a buyer beware...You know it also works both ways...Now its accepted that it ain't your land to sell and you can't keep on conning innocent people to buy...The orams made noises that they weren't told...Oh my gof someone conned them into buying?...

Mate these people just stabbed you in the back and you want them as neighbours?...

Because someone, according to the orams took them for a ride...

Highlighted part sounds famaliar??? It will not be our land the day we find a solution until then you can go to all the courts in the world including the mickey mouse in disneyland. It doesnt change the realities that until a soltuion is found nothing will change.

To be honest with you, you seem to be under the impression that you are now free to sell without impunity...Are the builders ever gonna tell the byuers that really you are only buying the structure, and the law can't touch you because the Aquis is suspended in the North?...and you think people are gonna que up?...mate I don't think you read the vertict right...

What it says is that you have every right to appeal against a judgement which went against you. Do it appeal if you win then carry what the judgement says, but you have to win first which could take a furtehr 10 years, good luck.

1...the Orams will not have to sell the house, for now

They can sell, transer the deeds, burnt it down do what the hell they want its totally up to them.

2...It estblished that the true owner of the land is Apostolides

Im happy for him.

3...Acquis in the North is suspended, according to the interpretation of the judge...

and the EU.

4...There is an appeal

Not suprised.

5...the judge rulled that he couldn't rule...I know it sounds stupid, but a fact.

So, did you get your hands on the property in the UK?

and you think people are gonna que up to buy property?...I think not...Noone wants to gamble with their life savings only to see them disappapear one day...and certain;y no one thats retired...

You seem to be concentrating to much on the British buying 1 donum of land which in comparison to the arabs and israelis who are buying in bulk. This action to get the Orams will not stop sell of land in the north, the origins of the buyer may change but investment from the outside world will continue.