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Orams Victory

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby G.Man » Thu Sep 07, 2006 6:41 am

Kozza wrote:
Also, there is blase talk of repatriation of mainlanders. That is the kind of language I grew up listening to when the National Front marched through our London cities in the 1970s. Imagine telling our immigrants of two generations in England (many of them Turkish or Greek Cypriots) that they had less of a right to citizenship because of their race - How preposterous!


If the cyprus problem is resolved and turkey make it into the EU then they will be as entitled to stay as any other european... Assuming they are on land that belongs to them legally and not "aquired" from an absent GC...
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Postby Kifeas » Thu Sep 07, 2006 7:24 am

Kozza wrote:The way I see it is that Greek Cypriots voted overwhelmingly against the Annan Plan. Despite its flaws, it provided a means to settle land desputes on both sides. The Turkish community voted for the Plan. The Greek decision has allowed their half access to the EU while the TRNC languishes in its limbo state. Now Greek Cypriots want to reap the benefits of EU membership and get compensation for their properties in the North.

As a 37-year-old London Cypriot who has witnessed the unfolding drama or tragedy unfold over my lifetime I am staggered by the Greek Cypriot attitudes I have seen on this forum. You can't have it both ways. You have been wronged but it seems that the only acceptable solution for many Greeks is 1974 parity and that just isn't going to happen.

For reasons of economic necessity brought on by Greek intransigence, the Turkish Cypriot authorities have repopulated the north with Anatolians. Greek Cypriots talk about them as if they were a subspecies. There are now two generations of mainland Turks living in Cyprus. Some of them originate from other countries like Bulgaria, and view themselves as Turkish Cypriots. The ethnic make-up of the north has changed irrevocably. My friend Ibo lives in Ayios Sergios. His grandparents were Pontic Greeks who spoke Greek as a first language. His family openly talk of their Greek ancestry but are extremely nationalistic Turks. My point is that the minorities in Cyprus should not be viewed as an abstract inconvenience. They are a political and social reality.

Also, there is blase talk of repatriation of mainlanders. That is the kind of language I grew up listening to when the National Front marched through our London cities in the 1970s. Imagine telling our immigrants of two generations in England (many of them Turkish or Greek Cypriots) that they had less of a right to citizenship because of their race - How preposterous!

The Oram Case ruling, I hope will open the eyes of many Greek Cypriots to the political realities that exist in Cyprus today. The sight of teary eyed Greeks revisiting their ancestral homes is painful but doesn't help solve any of the problems of this deep and painful conflict.


Nonesense! You know nothing!
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Postby Viewpoint » Thu Sep 07, 2006 7:25 am

We are losing sight of the real judgement here which is that the decision taken against the Orams in the GC courts cannot be implimented in the UK. Thats what the GCs were trying to do, is sieze the Orams home in Hove and have it sold off to get their compensation, didnt work and to add insult to injury Apostolides has also been ordered to pay legal costs of the Orams.

Now of course this can be appealed to death and taken to the ECHR etc but the message that is currently being given out to potential purchasers of property in the TRNC is that your property in the UK will not be at risk. Is this the message the GCs wanted to give to the world? wouldnt it have been more productive if all this effort was channeled into applying pressure on your leaders to solve this issue rather than take a case by case approach through the courts which can only be concluded via a comprehensive settlement or even confidence building measures.

Well done Mr Coundanassssssssss, you have shot yourself and the GC refugees in the foot.

Did anyone pick on the fact that the judgement kept referring to the TRNC and not the northern part of the "RoC", it appears you cant really avoid it recognized or not.
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Postby Viewpoint » Thu Sep 07, 2006 7:30 am

Kifeas wrote:
Kozza wrote:The way I see it is that Greek Cypriots voted overwhelmingly against the Annan Plan. Despite its flaws, it provided a means to settle land desputes on both sides. The Turkish community voted for the Plan. The Greek decision has allowed their half access to the EU while the TRNC languishes in its limbo state. Now Greek Cypriots want to reap the benefits of EU membership and get compensation for their properties in the North.

As a 37-year-old London Cypriot who has witnessed the unfolding drama or tragedy unfold over my lifetime I am staggered by the Greek Cypriot attitudes I have seen on this forum. You can't have it both ways. You have been wronged but it seems that the only acceptable solution for many Greeks is 1974 parity and that just isn't going to happen.

For reasons of economic necessity brought on by Greek intransigence, the Turkish Cypriot authorities have repopulated the north with Anatolians. Greek Cypriots talk about them as if they were a subspecies. There are now two generations of mainland Turks living in Cyprus. Some of them originate from other countries like Bulgaria, and view themselves as Turkish Cypriots. The ethnic make-up of the north has changed irrevocably. My friend Ibo lives in Ayios Sergios. His grandparents were Pontic Greeks who spoke Greek as a first language. His family openly talk of their Greek ancestry but are extremely nationalistic Turks. My point is that the minorities in Cyprus should not be viewed as an abstract inconvenience. They are a political and social reality.

Also, there is blase talk of repatriation of mainlanders. That is the kind of language I grew up listening to when the National Front marched through our London cities in the 1970s. Imagine telling our immigrants of two generations in England (many of them Turkish or Greek Cypriots) that they had less of a right to citizenship because of their race - How preposterous!

The Oram Case ruling, I hope will open the eyes of many Greek Cypriots to the political realities that exist in Cyprus today. The sight of teary eyed Greeks revisiting their ancestral homes is painful but doesn't help solve any of the problems of this deep and painful conflict.


Nonesense! You know nothing!


According to you and that doesnt count for much.
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Postby Kifeas » Thu Sep 07, 2006 8:46 am

Viewpoint, you know very well that had your “leadership” not allowed this relentless unethical attack on GC properties from all those crooks in the occupied north, after the Annan plan referendums, there would have been no need for Apostolides and Orams to end up in courts in this fashion. Apostolides court action was only necessary in order to stop this unethical climaxing of the looting of GC properties since 2003 /04, something which the TC “leadership” should have done instead. Apostolides court action was only meant to save and keep alive the prospects of a peaceful solution, and not to obstruct or destroy them. Without the substantial return of GC properties in the north, there is no other sufficient material basis for the GCs to want a peaceful reunification solution on the basis of BBF! Your community’s “leadership” tries to ignore this fact and pretends there is nothing it can do, and this is what compelled the GC Aposolides and Candunas to take action towards ending this unethical situation. Orams was not the target as such, nor was the goal as such the demolition of the villa they had built!

The decision that the British court had taken is profoundly a politically motivated one, veiled under a clearly one-sided and wrongfull interpretation of protocol 10 of the Cyprus EU treaty of accession. The assumptions and provisions of Protocol 10 of the treaty of accession were devised by the EU and Cyprus in order to serve as a shield to its inability due to the presence of the Turkish occupation forces to have effective and de facto control of its north, currently occupied territories. What was meant in the spirit of protocol 10 to serve as a protective shield, cannot itself be assumed to become a grave stone under which to burry the de jure sovereignty and jurisdiction of the RoC in these areas, in the expense and contrary to all other provisions of international law. The decision against Orams, whose recognition was sought in the UK, was a decision taken not in the occupied north of Cyprus in which the EU aqui is suspended and therefore enforcement in other EU countries cannot take place, but it was a decision taken by a RoC court fully based in the south areas of the RoC -in which the aqui is valid, regardless of the fact that it relates to a case whose evidence is situated in the north. Council Regulation (EC) No. 44/2001 on the basis of which recognition of the RoC court ruling was sought in the UK, is part of the EU aqui, but also the decision taken by the RoC court becomes part of the aqui because it was made by a competent RoC court that is based and functions in a territory of the EU in which the aqui is enforced. The decision was not taken by a court that was based in the occupied north in which the aqui is suspended. Furthermore, the act of trespassing for which the Orams were condemned, is not based on a law that came into existence as part of the EU aqui, but it was a pre-existing RoC law, as it is also the case in most other countries world-wide.

I am confident that with the right preparation, and also upon an authoritative interpretation of protocol 10 of the treaty of accession, the above UK high court decision may be appealed and reversed, especially in view of the fact that protocol 10 was not designed in order to sabotage and cancel the de jure sovereignty and jurisdiction of the RoC in its northern occupied territories.
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Postby Viewpoint » Thu Sep 07, 2006 9:38 am

Kifeas
Viewpoint, you know very well that had your “leadership” not allowed this relentless unethical attack on GC properties from all those crooks in the occupied north, after the Annan plan referendums, there would have been no need for Apostolides and Orams to end up in courts in this fashion. Apostolides court action was only necessary in order to stop this unethical climaxing of the looting of GC properties since 2003 /04, something which the TC “leadership” should have done instead. Apostolides court action was only meant to save and keep alive the prospects of a peaceful solution, and not to obstruct or destroy them. Without the substantial return of GC properties in the north, there is no other sufficient material basis for the GCs to want a peaceful reunification solution on the basis of BBF! Your community’s “leadership” tries to ignore this fact and pretends there is nothing it can do, and this is what compelled the GC Aposolides and Candunas to take action towards ending this unethical situation. Orams was not the target as such, nor was the goal as such the demolition of the villa they had built!


Firstly the risk that such a case would carry was evident form the start and this outcome is one that you will find difficult to stomach for many years to come. This is not the way to go about stopping development of disputed land in the north. You are trying to take the place of your leaders and solve the land problem through the law courts, you would have been more productive if you made the same effort and applied pressure on your leaders to persue measures with the TCs to bring this sort of building to a halt and allowed the economy in the north breathing space so as to move away from the building development which is currently taking place.

Your above highlighted comment confirms my thoughts that the goal of the majority of Gcs is purely to get back land and not build a united Cyprus for all.

What incentive is there for our leaders to stop development in the north, do they have any other areas in the economy which they can exploit, can they fly tourists direct to the island, can we sell our goods direct to the EU? Economic development knows no barriers and generates wealth via which ever route it can find, to control these you have to have alternatives otherwise you will be commiting economical suicide. On the one hand you proclaim we should breakaway from Turkey who we are economically dependent on and in the same breath you continue your politics of holding us economically hostage via isoaltion, restrcitions, no solution and trying to bring to a halt buiding development (which although controvertial) is a must for developing economies.

Imho this reality should fuel your desire for a solution the sooner the better but no instead you continue with court cases which take many many years to conclude, I really find it difficult to understand the GC logic on this issue.

The decision that the British court had taken is profoundly a politically motivated one, veiled under a clearly one-sided and wrongfull interpretation of protocol 10 of the Cyprus EU treaty of accession. The assumptions and provisions of Protocol 10 of the treaty of accession were devised by the EU and Cyprus in order to serve as a shield to its inability due to the presence of the Turkish occupation forces to have effective and de facto control of its north, currently occupied territories. What was meant in the spirit of protocol 10 to serve as a protective shield, cannot itself be assumed to become a grave stone under which to burry the de jure sovereignty and jurisdiction of the RoC in these areas, in the expense and contrary to all other provisions of international law. The decision against Orams, whose recognition was sought in the UK, was a decision taken not in the occupied north of Cyprus in which the EU aqui is suspended and therefore enforcement in other EU countries cannot take place, but it was a decision taken by a RoC court fully based in the south areas of the RoC -in which the aqui is valid, regardless of the fact that it relates to a case whose evidence is situated in the north. Council Regulation (EC) No. 44/2001 on the basis of which recognition of the RoC court ruling was sought in the UK, is part of the EU aqui, but also the decision taken by the RoC court becomes part of the aqui because it was made by a competent RoC court that is based and functions in a territory of the EU in which the aqui is enforced. The decision was not taken by a court that was based in the occupied north in which the aqui is suspended. Furthermore, the act of trespassing for which the Orams were condemned, is not based on a law that came into existence as part of the EU aqui, but it was a pre-existing RoC law, as it is also the case in most other countries world-wide.

I am confident that with the right preparation, and also upon an authoritative interpretation of protocol 10 of the treaty of accession, the above UK high court decision may be appealed and reversed, especially in view of the fact that protocol 10 was not designed in order to sabotage and cancel the de jure sovereignty and jurisdiction of the RoC in its northern occupied territories.


I am not a legal expert so I will not argue the rights and wrongs of the reasons for the decision, the situation as it currently stands is that the decision taken in the GC courts is not forcable in the TRNC or the UK.

You have been given the right to appeal, you state you are confident then feel free to go ahead but never count your chickens before they hatch.
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Re: USELESS CYPRUS GOVERNMENT

Postby sadik » Thu Sep 07, 2006 9:46 am

lysi wrote:
G.Man wrote:I doubt I can have much impact on this, but my company will not lend on property on GC land in TRNC, and anyone I hear of who is thinking of moving to TRNC is told that they should not buy any so called govt guaranteed properties, only properties with pre-74 turkish deeds...

Personally I could live on either side, and if I lived the other side I will save a lot of money, however, my conscience wont allow me to support an illegal regime financially, sadly unlike the many GC's who spend many hours in TC casinos or those that employ TC workers...

:shock:

I agree. When will the stupid CYPRUS GOVERNMENT close the crossing points, it only benefits the occupation regime & those thick greek cypriots who spend there pounds in the TURKISH owned casinos, the useless CYPRUS GOVERNMENT should open a casino in the free areas for gamblers.


Misinformation. According to credit card transactions, Turkish Cypriots are spending more money in total in the south than Greek Cypriots are spending in the north (including casinos). Try looking at the lincese plates in the parking lot of Orphanides.

In any case, closing the checkpoints will be a kamikaze move for the GCs.
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Postby Pyrpolizer » Thu Sep 07, 2006 10:56 am

Viewpoint wrote: The bottom line is this case highlighted that there is profit to be made in the TRNC for investors, that in itself will now fuel renewed interest, is that what you really wanted?.


Wishful thinking. The appeal has already beeing filed, there will be hundreds of analyses by lawyers regarding its chances, there will be publicity, and you will clearly see the results with your own eyes. Remember the Court of appeals will only examine the reasoning of the judge NOT the case itself. The reasoning has zero chance to pass!! Start looking for a new job Viewpoint!

wrote: Did anyone pick on the fact that the judgement kept referring to the TRNC and not the northern part of the "RoC", it appears you cant really avoid it recognized or not.


Yes I noticed that in fact the judge repeats it delibarately 2-3 times on the very first page!! Strengthens my point that everything was staged. The legal procedure was also a farse. The British court had no authority to examine the proceedings of the Cypriot court. They were totally out of scope….

wrote: This is not the way to go about stopping development of disputed land in the north. You are trying to take the place of your leaders and solve the land problem through the law courts, you would have been more productive if you made the same effort and applied pressure on your leaders to persue measures with the TCs to bring this sort of building to a halt and allowed the economy in the north breathing space so as to move away from the building development which is currently taking place.


Will you ever stop this nonsense? Our leaders do everything they can. What pressure can we even apply to them when they are up against your leadership that always says no.The only way for your leadership to say yes is to donate you 2/3 rds of our properties as per Anan plan!
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Postby Viewpoint » Thu Sep 07, 2006 11:15 am

Pyrpolizer
Wishful thinking. The appeal has already beeing filed, there will be hundreds of analyses by lawyers regarding its chances, there will be publicity, and you will clearly see the results with your own eyes. Remember the Court of appeals will only examine the reasoning of the judge NOT the case itself. The reasoning has zero chance to pass!! Start looking for a new job Viewpoint!


Lets just wait and see....you shoudl really ask yourselves will it have desired effect either way? the building may slow down and the buyers may originate from non EU countries but the GCs will still not be able to return to their properties unless their is a solution.


Yes I noticed that in fact the judge repeats it delibarately 2-3 times on the very first page!! Strengthens my point that everything was staged. The legal procedure was also a farse. The British court had no authority to examine the proceedings of the Cypriot court. They were totally out of scope….


Yeah yeah if they had decided in your favor you would now be applauding British Justice, typical...another conspiracy against GCs ...tut tut tut.

Will you ever stop this nonsense? Our leaders do everything they can. What pressure can we even apply to them when they are up against your leadership that always says no.The only way for your leadership to say yes is to donate you 2/3 rds of our properties as per Anan plan!


What have they done??
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Postby Solveit » Thu Sep 07, 2006 11:17 am

Kifeas wrote:
Kozza wrote:The way I see it is that Greek Cypriots voted overwhelmingly against the Annan Plan. Despite its flaws, it provided a means to settle land desputes on both sides. The Turkish community voted for the Plan. The Greek decision has allowed their half access to the EU while the TRNC languishes in its limbo state. Now Greek Cypriots want to reap the benefits of EU membership and get compensation for their properties in the North.

As a 37-year-old London Cypriot who has witnessed the unfolding drama or tragedy unfold over my lifetime I am staggered by the Greek Cypriot attitudes I have seen on this forum. You can't have it both ways. You have been wronged but it seems that the only acceptable solution for many Greeks is 1974 parity and that just isn't going to happen.

For reasons of economic necessity brought on by Greek intransigence, the Turkish Cypriot authorities have repopulated the north with Anatolians. Greek Cypriots talk about them as if they were a subspecies. There are now two generations of mainland Turks living in Cyprus. Some of them originate from other countries like Bulgaria, and view themselves as Turkish Cypriots. The ethnic make-up of the north has changed irrevocably. My friend Ibo lives in Ayios Sergios. His grandparents were Pontic Greeks who spoke Greek as a first language. His family openly talk of their Greek ancestry but are extremely nationalistic Turks. My point is that the minorities in Cyprus should not be viewed as an abstract inconvenience. They are a political and social reality.

Also, there is blase talk of repatriation of mainlanders. That is the kind of language I grew up listening to when the National Front marched through our London cities in the 1970s. Imagine telling our immigrants of two generations in England (many of them Turkish or Greek Cypriots) that they had less of a right to citizenship because of their race - How preposterous!

The Oram Case ruling, I hope will open the eyes of many Greek Cypriots to the political realities that exist in Cyprus today. The sight of teary eyed Greeks revisiting their ancestral homes is painful but doesn't help solve any of the problems of this deep and painful conflict.


Nonesense! You know nothing!


On the contrary Kifeas, it is you that know nothing!! Kozza's post was the most sensible thing I've read on this forum for a long time.
Far more refreshing to read than the usual insulting drival that you come up with. :roll:
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